asked if i was irish

[fluter]

I get the same thing occasionally. I can honestly say that most of my Scots ancestors stopped off in Ireland on the way. Some of them then made the classic migration from Philadelphia down the Great Waggon Road to the Carolina back country. This gives lots of potentially interesting conversational topics, including the fact that I really wear it because it's comfortable (particularly in summer).

[seanachie]

In some places...depending on where you live and your cultural upbringing, it might be more common to see Irishman in kilts than Scots... for me the Ancient Order of Hibernians and Emerald Society Pipe bands were the first introduction to the kilt. Of course I have also been known to wear tri color flash with my saffron kilt so that may further cause confusion.

[beloitpiper]

I think the reason so many people think bagpipes and kilts are Irish is because people who themselves are Irish(American) think that bagpipes and kilts are Irish.

[SteveB]

Around this neck of the woods, most people see kilts on Saint Patrick's Day. It being a big time celebration in Boston with every neighbourhood having a kilted pipe band or three in their parade. This is the most frequent sight of kilts here other than a few of us that wear them all the time - we are always being asked "what is (or where is) the Irish event?"

Slainte

[O'Callaghan]

I encounter a mixture of people who think I'm Irish or Scottish respectively, and I am of Irish descent, not Scots.

Most Americans encounter Irish pipe bands more often than Scottish ones, and that is probably where they most often see the kilt. Look no further for a reason.

Of course, Republicans (Irish nationalists, not the GOP) adopted the kilt more than a century ago, which IMHO gainsays all the 'no historical basis' folk, i.e. it's their basis for saying that which is actually a bit lacking. I'd say there's no basis atall for saying that the events of the 19th century aren't old enough to be history in the 21st.

That isn't to say it wasn't copied from the Scots, but it's also true that the Scots adapted the kilt from the brat and leine worn by their ancestors who came to Scotland from Ireland. And of course not all the highlanders were of Irish descent, but Ireland is still where the brat and leine came from, whichever way you slice it.

It's true also that the pipes didn't originate in Ireland, but then they didn't originate in Scotland either, but somewhere in the Middle East. If the modern Irish great pipes are based on Scottish ones minus a drone, it's because no-one has a model for the old two-drone pipes that were played in both places before the Scots added a third drone.

Have I missed any of the usual arguments that people raise? Don't think so.

[The Thing]

I encounter a mixture of people who think I'm Irish or Scottish respectively, and I am of Irish descent, not Scots.

Most Americans encounter Irish pipe bands more often than Scottish ones, and that is probably where they most often see the kilt. Look no further for a reason.

Of course, Republicans (Irish nationalists, not the GOP) adopted the kilt more than a century ago, which IMHO gainsays all the 'no historical basis' folk, i.e. it's their basis for saying that which is actually a bit lacking. I'd say there's no basis atall for saying that the events of the 19th century aren't old enough to be history in the 21st.

That isn't to say it wasn't copied from the Scots, but it's also true that the Scots adapted the kilt from the brat and leine worn by their ancestors who came to Scotland from Ireland. And of course not all the highlanders were of Irish descent, but Ireland is still where the brat and leine came from, whichever way you slice it.

It's true also that the pipes didn't originate in Ireland, but then they didn't originate in Scotland either, but somewhere in the Middle East. If the modern Irish great pipes are based on Scottish ones minus a drone, it's because no-one has a model for the old two-drone pipes that were played in both places before the Scots added a third drone.

Have I missed any of the usual arguments that people raise? Don't think so.

It was more cultural nationalists who adopted the Irish kilt, yes it is true that some of these men went on to become old republicans. The vast majority of the nationalist movement were peaceful in nature and it was violence that caused so many gifted people to move away from the movement.

[swampfox]

i always love a history lesson

[macwilkin]

I encounter a mixture of people who think I'm Irish or Scottish respectively, and I am of Irish descent, not Scots.

Most Americans encounter Irish pipe bands more often than Scottish ones, and that is probably where they most often see the kilt. Look no further for a reason.

Of course, Republicans (Irish nationalists, not the GOP) adopted the kilt more than a century ago, which IMHO gainsays all the 'no historical basis' folk, i.e. it's their basis for saying that which is actually a bit lacking. I'd say there's no basis atall for saying that the events of the 19th century aren't old enough to be history in the 21st.

That isn't to say it wasn't copied from the Scots, but it's also true that the Scots adapted the kilt from the brat and leine worn by their ancestors who came to Scotland from Ireland. And of course not all the highlanders were of Irish descent, but Ireland is still where the brat and leine came from, whichever way you slice it.

It's true also that the pipes didn't originate in Ireland, but then they didn't originate in Scotland either, but somewhere in the Middle East. If the modern Irish great pipes are based on Scottish ones minus a drone, it's because no-one has a model for the old two-drone pipes that were played in both places before the Scots added a third drone.

Have I missed any of the usual arguments that people raise? Don't think so.

Just an observation on the comment about 'no historical basis folk': I can't speak for Matt, but at least from my viewpoint, as the co-author of an article that deals with the historical aspects of the kilt as Irish dress, I have no issue with the Irish wearing the kilt; the issue I have is with the myth of the kilt as ancient Irish dress. Not to be the pedantic pedagogue, but I didn't want Matt & I's efforts mis-represented here.

T.

[Mike_Oettle]

Todd (Cajunscot) wrote: “I have no issue with the Irish wearing the kilt; the issue I have is with the myth of the kilt as ancient Irish dress.”

On this point you (and Matt) are entirely correct, of course. But I do feel that the philibeg is a natural development of the breacan feile, and so also of the Irish brat.
And while there is much argument around the English engineer Rawlinson (I think I read that Matt dismissed him as being entirely mythical), I am persuaded that on balance of probabilities he did work in mines in at least two Scottish counties, and had a tailor make up a philibeg.
After all, he was married to a Scotswoman, and wore Scottish dress. It seems highly likely to me that he, as an outsider, had an insight into how it could be simplified or rationalised.
Strapping on a philibeg is far simpler than the laborious process of belting up a breacan feile, even if the typical Highlander did have some means of maintaining the pleats.
I do not see the logic of dismissing his invention as a claim by the Sassenachs that pulls the rug of Scottish tradition (or inventiveness) out from under the Highlander’s feet.
Regards,
Mike

[macwilkin]

Todd (Cajunscot) wrote: “I have no issue with the Irish wearing the kilt; the issue I have is with the myth of the kilt as ancient Irish dress.”

On this point you (and Matt) are entirely correct, of course. But I do feel that the philibeg is a natural development of the breacan feile, and so also of the Irish brat.
And while there is much argument around the English engineer Rawlinson (I think I read that Matt dismissed him as being entirely mythical), I am persuaded that on balance of probabilities he did work in Scottish mines in at least two counties, and had a tailor make up a philibeg.
After all, he was married to a Scotswoman, and wore Scottish dress. It seems highly likely to me that he, as an outsider, had an insight into how it could be simplified or rationalised.
Strapping on a philibeg is far simpler than the laborious process of belting up a breacan feile, even if the typical Highlander did have some means of maintaining the pleats.
I do not see the logic of dismissing his invention as a claim by the Sassenachs that pulls the rug of Scottish tradition (or inventiveness) out from under the Highlander’s feet.
Regards,
Mike

Mike,

Again, I won't pretend to speak for Matt, but his article on "The Early History of the Kilt" on his web site does discuss the leine & brat, as well as story of Rawlinson:

http://albanach.org/kilt.html

I think you're confusing Matt's point: he is not denying the possibility that Rawlinson could have come up with such a garment outright; rather he is dismissing the claim that Rawlinson was the first to do it, and it was never done before the 1730s, which Matt specifically disputes in above article.

My dispute is not so much with development as you imply, but rather with the "false" pedigree created by some in the Irish nationalist community in the late 19th century to justify the Irish wearing the kilt. Again, I would direct you to our article on the STM web site for the particulars.

T.