asked if i was irish

[PGH]

I encounter a mixture of people who think I'm Irish or Scottish respectively, and I am of Irish descent, not Scots.

Most Americans encounter Irish pipe bands more often than Scottish ones, and that is probably where they most often see the kilt. Look no further for a reason.

Of course, Republicans (Irish nationalists, not the GOP) adopted the kilt more than a century ago, which IMHO gainsays all the 'no historical basis' folk, i.e. it's their basis for saying that which is actually a bit lacking. I'd say there's no basis atall for saying that the events of the 19th century aren't old enough to be history in the 21st.

That isn't to say it wasn't copied from the Scots, but it's also true that the Scots adapted the kilt from the brat and leine worn by their ancestors who came to Scotland from Ireland. And of course not all the highlanders were of Irish descent, but Ireland is still where the brat and leine came from, whichever way you slice it.

It's true also that the pipes didn't originate in Ireland, but then they didn't originate in Scotland either, but somewhere in the Middle East. If the modern Irish great pipes are based on Scottish ones minus a drone, it's because no-one has a model for the old two-drone pipes that were played in both places before the Scots added a third drone.

Have I missed any of the usual arguments that people raise? Don't think so.

I play in a Scottish bagpipe band in America. Every year we are asked to play "Scotland the Brave" in St Patrick's Day parades. After how many years will "Scotland the Brave" be considered an Irish tune?

Most "Irish" pipe bands in America dress up like Scottish bands. You know, there are pipe bands in England that dress in kilts etc. The difference is nobody in England would claim joint ownership of Scottish heritage because a handful of people in England dressed that way.

Ironically enough, both the traditional Scottish pipe bands and Irish ones in saffron kilts are dressed as facsimiles of British soldiers.

As far as the bagpipe goes, there is no definitive proof of origin. It's just as likely to be central Europe as far east. To my mind, more likely to be central Europe since that is where the greatest variety of bagpipe are found today.

The evidence regarding bagpipes use in the British Isles suggests it reached Scotland and Ireland via England. Yes, England.

[macwilkin]

Ironically enough, both the traditional Scottish pipe bands and Irish ones in saffron kilts are dressed as facsimiles of British soldiers.

A number of Irish bands are now adopting uniform kit from pipe bands of the Republic of Ireland's Defence Forces.

T.

[PGH]

A number of Irish bands are now adopting uniform kit from pipe bands of the Republic of Ireland's Defence Forces.

T.

Which is a copy of the uniform used by the Irish regiments of the British Army.

[macwilkin]

Which is a copy of the uniform used by the Irish regiments of the British Army.

To some degree, but "you're preaching to the choir", given our recent article which does discuss this connection. The Irish Regiments of the British Army certainly were the inspiration, but the Pipes & Drums of the Irish Air Corps and IDF units are not carbon copies of the Royal Irish Rifles, as you are implying.

The IDF has, over the years, attempted to develop its own unique style, whilst still having its roots in the Irish regiments of the British Army (at least when it comes to uniforms). Witness the famous "coal scuttle" helmet made by Vickers that Churchill hated so much during WWII.

MacCarron's Irish Defence Forces since 1922 is the best one-volume history of the IDF and its uniforms available today, INMHO.

T.

[Mike_Oettle]

Hi, Todd – Matt’s point concerning Rawlinson is taken. Thank you for pointing that out.
There is one article I have read lately that dismissed Rawlinson as a complete fabrication (or fairy tale, if you prefer), but clearly it was not Matt’s.

Turning to a more recent point of discussion, I would be most interested to see the uniforms worn by the Irish units you mention – as well as the infamous coal-scuttle!
The steel helmet worn by the South African forces in my time was a poor copy of the US helmet. Its plastic inners fitted badly, and it invariably rattled when worn, leading to headaches. It was widely known as the p***-pot!
Not sure what helmet is worn nowadays.
Regards,
Mike

[Bugbear]

I was asked if I was Swedish once...

I always say "No, I'm Coloradoan."

I'm New Mexican.

That usually evokes the response, "you're from Mexico!"

Although many of my ancestors were Irish, and as far as I can tell, none of them were Scottish.

[macwilkin]

Hi, Todd – Matt’s point concerning Rawlinson is taken. Thank you for pointing that out.
There is one article I have read lately that dismissed Rawlinson as a complete fabrication (or fairy tale, if you prefer), but clearly it was not Matt’s.

Turning to a more recent point of discussion, I would be most interested to see the uniforms worn by the Irish units you mention – as well as the infamous coal-scuttle!
The steel helmet worn by the South African forces in my time was a poor copy of the US helmet. Its plastic inners fitted badly, and it invariably rattled when worn, leading to headaches. It was widely known as the p***-pot!
Not sure what helmet is worn nowadays.
Regards,
Mike

Ask and ye shall receive, Mike:

http://members.fortunecity.com/milit/VickersM1927a.htm

http://www.curragh.info/images/curra.../armypic40.jpg

The reserves of the Irish Army adopted a very "teutonic" style uniform, in homage to the uniforms of the so-called "Casement Brigade", which was to be a "turncoat" unit of ex-Irish POWs in British service who would fight with the Germans in WWI.

Two photos of Irish Defence Forces Pipe Bands may be found here:

http://www.military.ie/army/specialists/music/pipes.htm

Regards,

Todd

[The Thing]

Which is a copy of the uniform used by the Irish regiments of the British Army.

The Saffron kilt was developed by Irish nationalists and then adopted by the British Army's Irish regiments. Thereafter by the Irish defence forces Infantry battalions and Air Corps and Garda pipebands. The Prison service adopted a solid kilt and the various fire brigades tartan.

[Mike_Oettle]

Thanks, Todd. The M-27 helmet is most odd – not just because it it follows the German 1916 pattern, but because of the poor quality of manufacture.
Had it been made properly, it would no doubt have been more effective than the British “soup-plate” helmet.
The soup-plate was still in use in South Africa in the early 1960s, and a few old-timers in my regiment still had them. But mostly we had the unsightly variety. Fortunately when we were operational, we had to wear bush hats instead (still unsightly, but at least comfortable).
Much as I dislike the German army helmet style because of its use by the enemy in two world wars (and present-day use by some bikers), both the 1916 pattern and the later version were far more efficient designs than the old soup-plate
What surprises me about the band uniforms is not just that they follow the British Army Irish pipe band pattern, but that the members of one band wear glengarrys – most un-Irish headgear. I would have thought caubeens would be worn by the entire army (when not in steel helmets).
It also surprises me that nobody seems to have questioned the use of tan-coloured kilts under the colour-name saffron.
I am aware that these have been in use since they were adopted by the Irish Guards more than a century ago, but to be authentic, surely they should be a brighter yellow?
Regards,
Mike

[macwilkin]

Thanks, Todd. The M-27 helmet is most odd – not just because it it follows the German 1916 pattern, but because of the poor quality of manufacture.
Had it been made properly, it would no doubt have been more effective than the British “soup-plate” helmet.
The soup-plate was still in use in South Africa in the early 1960s, and a few old-timers in my regiment still had them. But mostly we had the unsightly variety. Fortunately when we were operational, we had to wear bush hats instead (still unsightly, but at least comfortable).
Much as I dislike the German army helmet style because of its use by the enemy in two world wars (and present-day use by some bikers), both the 1916 pattern and the later version were far more efficient designs than the old soup-plate
What surprises me about the band uniforms is not just that they follow the British Army Irish pipe band pattern, but that the members of one band wear glengarrys – most un-Irish headgear. I would have thought caubeens would be worn by the entire army (when not in steel helmets).
It also surprises me that nobody seems to have questioned the use of tan-coloured kilts under the colour-name saffron.
I am aware that these have been in use since they were adopted by the Irish Guards more than a century ago, but to be authentic, surely they should be a brighter yellow?
Regards,
Mike

Mike,

Even more ironic is the fact that the coal-scuttles were made by Vickers!

In regards to the headgear of the IDF, it should be noted that the Irish Army's Cavalry regiments wore (and still continue to wear) a caubeen which is known as a "glengarry" in Irish Army circles.

T.