Bagipes Banned from Edinburgh Wedding !

**saxandpipes** · 24th July 11, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by JSFMACLJR

My father was an Anglican/Episcopalian priest. He had parishes in both the Anglican Church of Canada, and the Episcopal Church USA. He would never allow pipes to be played inside the church; outside would be fine. My father loved the pipes--but just not in the church. No exceptions. If that caused a problem for anyone, well, sorry, try someplace else.

What was his reasoning, if you don't mind my asking?

**saxandpipes** · 24th July 11, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by CMcG

Slightly off-topic, but I'm curious about the quartertone sharp tuning of a chanter. Is that a sharper than the drones, thereby giving a richer sound from the tones rubbing, or is everything tuned up a bit? ...

Easy answer is:

If the chanter is tuned high, the drones will be too. There is no musical advantage to having one's drones flat to the chanter.

Cheers,

Michael

**saxandpipes** · 24th July 11, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by davidlpope

466 is actually a relatively "flat" tuning of a chanter. Bagpipes don't work on a conventional A=440hz scale. Our pipe band tuned A=476hz. The tenor drones are always tuned an octave below Low A on the chanter, the bass drone is two octaves down.

As far as not being able to have pipes in a particular church, if you don't agree with the rules, find another place to play ball...

David

Quite right.

Bagpipes are actually what would be known in "normal" musical terms as transposing instruments. Meaning that when they play a given note (let's use A), it actually sounds another in relation to a non-transposing instrument, such as the piano. The saxophone is also a transposing instrument. (An A on an alto saxophone would sound as a C on the piano, and the A of the pipes- somewhere between a Bb and a B).

I have an old (50s/60s maybe) chanter, and can be played in tune with concert pitch instruments. It also probably tunes to around 466, but this is referring to the A of the pipes... it would actually sound a Bb on the piano. (So when I'm playing a tune in A, it will sound in Bb on the piano).

The pipes therefore, would be considered to be "an instrument in C#", which is rather unusual. (Saxophones, and most other transposing instruments, come in the keys of Bb and Eb).

In general this is not a major concern, as most pipe-bands stick to their own, but problems do arise when individual pipers go out and want to play with other instruments as OC Richard mentioned, but I doubt that most people would really notice if the pipes were tuned sharp or flat. I've also had the experience of trying to play saxophones in tune with a pipe band, with pretty much disastrous effect.

Anyway, I can't agree with the narrow-minded classification of pipes being exclusively instruments of war, but I think (Highland!) pipes sound best outdoors anyway... that at least is what they were designed for!

Cheers!

Michael

**JSFMACLJR** · 24th July 11, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by saxandpipes

What was his reasoning, if you don't mind my asking?

Well, the Church frowns upon the use of "secular" instruments in her liturgies. Organs yes, pipes no. That would be the number one reason.

I'm sure a bit of my father's thinking was based on the old "instrument of war" aspect of the pipes, as well. He would laugh and use that reason with prospective brides and such, but really the main reason was that the Church frowns upon instruments that are purely secular. Whilst my father was an Anglican, he was an Anglo-Catholic, and would have been familiar with the Motu Proprio "Tra le Sollecitudini
" promulgated by Pope St. Pius X in 1903, which stated:

VI. Organ and instruments
15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.

16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.

17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.

18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

I hope that answers your question.

**saxandpipes** · 24th July 11, 12:40 PM

It does,

Thank you!

Very interesting about the piano... I wasn't expecting that!

Cheers,

Michael

**Father Bill** · 24th July 11, 03:30 PM

Gee, I guess I shouldn't have had the piper play two weeks back with the Archbishop in my church... and yes, I'm Anglican/ C of E.

**piperdbh** · 24th July 11, 04:07 PM

So, according the the decree Sandy posted above, all the great Masses by Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and the other giant composers are off-limits, because they're written to be accompanied by "secular" instruments; those "noisy, frivolous" things.
Please don't let this turn into an argument about religion or anything else, but I wonder how much resistance his late Holiness received from this declaration, especially from churches which were not wealthy enough to possess an organ or were located in countries with their own non-European instruments. Hmmm...

**piperdbh** · 24th July 11, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by saxandpipes

I've also had the experience of trying to play saxophones in tune with a pipe band, with pretty much disastrous effect.

Trying to play saxophones in tune with ANYTHING causes disastrous effects.

**CMcG** · 24th July 11, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by saxandpipes

Easy answer is:

If the chanter is tuned high, the drones will be too. There is no musical advantage to having one's drones flat to the chanter.

Cheers,

Michael

Unfortunately, a difference in tuning of chanter relative to drones seems to be an all too common problem... It makes sense to me that the ought to be tuned the same though!