fly plaid and military uniform

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Generally at a wedding only the groom wears a plaid. That being the case, you would probably be best advised to forgo the fly plaid.

Medals: the conventions are the same for civilian attire, Highland or otherwise. If the wedding is taking place before 6PM then full-size medals are worn; after 6PM miniatures are worn. If wearing full-size medals at the wedding it is not necessary to change to miniatures later in the evening. With Highland attire the placement of medals follows the British custom with the medals pinned to the lapel approximately 1 1/2 inches below the notch. Chas' medals are spot on, and exactly how yours should be worn with civilian Highland attire.

[Chas]

Chas, if I may ask, is that a PC with 5 button vest and jabot? The reason I ask is that I have been thinking of wearing a regulation doublet with 5 button vest and jabot. I like the look of what you have done there. Cheers

Chas: That's a stunningly handsome outfit. You look great in it. Is that some kind of plaid extension below your brooch? It looks very nice, and highlights the macaroni.
John

Thanks, guys - you're too kind.

Yes it is a 5 button waistcoat. I wanted the look that you can see. A bit of history - I got hold of an antique jabot and cuffs (tiniest ivory buttons that I have ever seen). Far 'fuller' than the one I am wearing. I think about twice as much material. It was known to be over 200 years old and maybe as much as 350. They were somewhat yellowed with age, but I believed that there were methods of whitening them.

A friend of mine has a sister who is a conservator with the British Museum. I visited them and she got very excited. What I had seen as a pretty pattern, was in fact something more. She showed me how to follow the pattern and how the number of stitches changed as the pattern repeated. It was a code - a secret message. I too got excited.

I thought that I might be holding a piece of history in my hands. Maybe. Or maybe not. She explained that the secret message could equally be 'I love you' or it could be 'Send more Soldiers'.

Any way, she has it and is doing magical things to bring back the white and hopefully to decipher the code.

So I had to quickly buy another jabot for the occasion. You can just see where the waist coat ends, through the jabot. You could not see anything through the original. If you are thinking of this look, make your own jabot with extra material to cover the join. 'Florid and full', should be what you are aiming for.

A quick disclaimer. I would not normally wear a 5 button with a PC jacket. It only works because of the jabot. I would never wear them together with a long or bow tie.

As to the fly plaid, John. What you see is one corner of the fly pushed through the epaulette. It really wasn't enough. Another 6" at least, to the front, to balance the weight of the fly at the back.

You will notice that I am holding on to my jacket. That was to stop the weight at the back dragging it backwards.

I have now purchased a very nice Sheriffmuir, so will probably be 'retiring' this look. By the way, the Sheriffmuir comes with a 6 button waist coat and a round neck.

Thanks again,

Regards

Chas

[Geoff Withnell]

Generally at a wedding only the groom wears a plaid. That being the case, you would probably be best advised to forgo the fly plaid.

Medals: the conventions are the same for civilian attire, Highland or otherwise. If the wedding is taking place before 6PM then full-size medals are worn; after 6PM miniatures are worn. If wearing full-size medals at the wedding it is not necessary to change to miniatures later in the evening. With Highland attire the placement of medals follows the British custom with the medals pinned to the lapel approximately 1 1/2 inches below the notch. Chas' medals are spot on, and exactly how yours should be worn with civilian Highland attire.

I agree that normally only the groom wears a fly plaid. I must respectfully disagree with your blanket statement on the placement of medals. USMC regulations clearly state that medals or miniature medals on civilian attire should be worn in the same location (or as close as practical) they would be worn on the uniform. So on almost any PC, or other formal jacket, just above the breast pocket, not on the lapel.

[Riverkilt]

Sounds as if she is EXTREMELY PROUD of you and wants you in full turnout to show that pride.

[mookien]

Chas: I'll send you a PM. I feel guilty about hijacking Xzoomy's thread.

Riverkilt: Great comment!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I agree that normally only the groom wears a fly plaid. I must respectfully disagree with your blanket statement on the placement of medals. USMC regulations clearly state that medals or miniature medals on civilian attire should be worn in the same location (or as close as practical) they would be worn on the uniform. So on almost any PC, or other formal jacket, just above the breast pocket, not on the lapel.

Unless, of course, your branch of service has different regulations...

Geoff, I suppose that the reason I made a more or less blanket statement concerning the placement of medals on Highland attire is because the question was about civilian Highland attire, and how medals, etc., are worn with that uniquely Scottish mode of dress. Another consideration is that the regulations concerning the wearing of medals are not the same for all branches of the military in the United States, with the Marine Corps perhaps following different regulations than say the Air Force.

I know that a lot of guys stick to their service regs, which is fine-- but one must remember that when the service regs, as applied to civilian attire, were promulgated, they were intended to reflect the wearing of medals on ordinary attire, not kilt jackets.

The reasons that Highland attire places the medals on the lapel, just below the notch, are numerous, but here are three more or less salient points to consider:

1) Because the kilt jacket is significantly shorter than an ordinary jacket, placing the medals higher on the chest creates a more balanced look;

2) By placing the medals higher, the jacket (which is worn open) has less of a tendency to flop around or sag on the left side;

3) By placing the medals higher, one is less apt to have them become snagged in the gown of one's dancing partner (you only have to become entangled in a lady's gown once to understand just how important this is ).

I suppose that the other reason for following traditional standards of Highland attire is because that's how it's done (and how it has been done for as long as civilians have worn medals on kilt jackets) in Scotland.

Speaking personally, I have never worn Highland attire to any military event, including the annual Army Ball here in Washington DC. Since I can no longer squeeze into my mess dress I wear ordinary black tie with my medals placed in accordance with current Army regs, so I do understand where you are coming from. However, outside of a strictly military setting, I feel that it is appropriate to follow Scottish customs, even in the United States, when wearing medals with Highland attire.

[Father Bill]

Guys - is the problem here the mixing of two traditions?

[Drac]

Rathdown is correct in that there are different rules for different branches. In the researched I did (and questioning here) I found out that US Navy only allows miniture medals with black tie attire.

Since Navy dinner dress jackets are fairly close to kilt evening jackets the medal ware is fairly easy.

Jim

Edit - here is last year's Navy Ball (not going this year, to much rudeness) -

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Guys - is the problem here the mixing of two traditions?

I, for one, don't really see a problem-- the OP asked about wearing a fly plaid and medals (on his Prince Charlie coatee) to his grand daughters wedding. Generally, it's the custom that only the groom wears a fly plaid; the wearing of medals with civilian attire is another matter, and two things bear on this discussion. The first is that, generally speaking, social custom in the USA dictates that medals are only worn to weddings by active duty military personnel in uniform. The second, which applies mostly to the USA, is the wearing (or more accurately the placement) of medals on civilian Highland attire. One camp suggests following the service regulations of one's respective branch of the military, the other advocates following the customs of how civilian Highland attire should be worn. It's all really much of a muchness which really boils down to how much weight one wishes to attach to social etiquette and cultural custom. That's hardly a problem in my book.

[Father Bill]

I, for one, don't really see a problem-- the OP asked about wearing a fly plaid and medals (on his Prince Charlie coatee) to his grand daughters wedding. Generally, it's the custom that only the groom wears a fly plaid; the wearing of medals with civilian attire is another matter, and two things bear on this discussion. The first is that, generally speaking, social custom in the USA dictates that medals are only worn to weddings by active duty military personnel in uniform. The second, which applies mostly to the USA, is the wearing (or more accurately the placement) of medals on civilian Highland attire. One camp suggests following the service regulations of one's respective branch of the military, the other advocates following the customs of how civilian Highland attire should be worn. It's all really much of a muchness which really boils down to how much weight one wishes to attach to social etiquette and cultural custom. That's hardly a problem in my book.

Well said. I was referring to the mixing of American and Highland traditions as a source of a small but resolveable conflict.