Native Scots vs the scottish diaspora

[OC Richard]

We have a saying over here "Clogs to Clogs in three generations" in other words the first generation from a poor background works hard and does well for itself, the second generation loose the work ethic and squanders their resources instead of building on them , the third generation are back where the first generation started only they know what the previous generation "lost" for them!

Ha! That's a wonderful summation of a thing I've often observed.

For a time I taught at a High School in an affluent area. The joke was that the Faculty Parking Lot was full of old beat-up subcompacts while the Student Parking Lot was full of shiny new BMWs and Mercedes. Seemed that each kid got a brand-new $40,000 car as soon as they got their first Drivers' Licence.

Well, you've never seen such a bunch of lazy unmotivated do-nothing students in your life! Their parents had worked hard in school to get good grades and get medical or engineering or law degrees, and worked hard in their careers to be successful. But their kids had had everything handed to them their entire lives and thought that they could coast through school getting poor grades and Mommy and Daddy would make everything OK.

One kid's mother was a judge, who on numerous occasions had used her influence to keep her kid (a drug addict) out of trouble with the law. That kid was a do-nothing stoner who flunked all of his classes.

It was a common sight to see these wealthy, influential parents come for private meetings with the Principal to pressure him to let their kids pass in spite of poor performance.

Rant over.

Now about this Scottish Diaspora thing, I do find it amusing how many Americans get all puffed up over their supposed Scottishness or Irishness or what have you. I'm an English/Irish/Scottish mutt and I don't give it all much importance or thought. I play pipes; I must wear kilts to play them; and besides that I enjoy wearing Highland Dress and studying it for its own sake.

[Meggers]

I fear you are opening a real can of worms here Warrior.

As a native Scot living in the USA I believe I can see both sides of this discussion, but believe it is predicated on whether you think blood lines (nature) are more important than environmental influences (nurture) or otherwise. I have never been able to come down definitively on either side of that debate, and believe that both have influences on how human beings are. I do know (from observation) and I apologise if it seems patently obvious that the Native Scots experience of environment and surrounding culture is very different to that of the Scottish-American. I cannot speak for other diaspora countries, having only visited Canada briefly on three occasions and having never been to Australia, New Zealand or South Africa.

I think that many members of the diaspora feel connected to their ancestral homeland, and want to honour their heritage (nature), however, they view that heritage through the prism of their experience (nurture). Therein lies the cause of confusion, misunderstanding and upset because the experience of the Native Scot (nurture) is often very different and even at odds with that of his diaspora cousin. Neither groups understanding of the Kilt or Scottishness is a question of morality or right and wrong .

As to pride by native Scots in the achievements of the diaspora, I suppose that is a question that can only be answered by individuals. For myself, the answer is that like any other group of human beings the diaspora contains a broad range of figures, many of whom were/are good people of integrity but equally many are people with whom I share little in common. I must be honest for those genuinely interested in Scotland and her culture I have a lot of time and respect. I accept that there are also those who try and combine both identities (even multiple ethnic heritage identities) kilted in ways that jar against the sensibilities with which I was brought up, but nevertheless are good honest people. Lastly there are the Brigadoon fantasist types who refuse to consider Scotland's real History and culture and make a mockery of them which does really irk me. However, there are some in Scotland (re: tartan tat shops) who are happy to deal in that coin too, because tartan, kilts, and phoney myths provide an easy way to make a few quid.

I would have to say that I agree here.

My opinion on this is very simple. The diaspora is not one and the same with the native scots, however, we are connected. At the end of the day, I, for example, am an American with Scot and Irish heritage. I am only a few generations removed, I still have family alive who remember the first people of my family who came over, etc. but I am an American. I was raised in America, my cultural conditioning is American. End of story. I am an American with Scottish and Irish ancestory and I express the love for my motherland through honoring my heritage but that is it. I am not a Scot and I am not an Irishwoman. I am a Scot-American and an Irish-American.

There was a woman going through Druidic training through OBOD who explained a similar concept (ancient vs. modern Druidry) about ancestoral connections with modern day things. She said the ancestor is like a sea with the modern day versions as rivers that feed from the sea. We are not the same things, but we have the same source of love and inspiration. Scots and Scottish-Americans both love Scotland. We love Scottish culture, language, traditions, etc. But we, ourselves, are different beings.

Perhaps I am only speaking of my own flaw at this point, but I sometimes feel as though the Scot/Irish-American isn't given enough credit by Scot/Irish-Americans. It is almost as though some would rather fancy themselves as "a Scot" than simply undersatnd that they are not Scottish, but are Americans (or Canadian or whatever) with Scottish heritage. Scot Americans have an incredible history here in the States too. Their adventure didnt end when they crossed the sea. They left one home and then went to another to continue making a great and colorful history for us to be proud of. We can be proud of both, by right. We can be proud of our motherland because it is in our blood and history. We shouldnt, however, neglect the land of our new generations either. That would be unfair.

[James Hood]

As a 2nd generation American with German-Austrian-Dutch blood much greater in % than Scottish-English, this thread is being read and pondered upon without detailed comment.

Interesting however, while travel was done in, enjoyed and endearing, inside the United Kingdom...

...with all its heinous recent "national historical flaws"...

...Deutschland felt like home...

...says this owner of Lederhosen, keying this in a kilt with a German beer at hand.

[ForresterModern]

When kilted in a public and often crowded place I am quite frequently asked if I am scottish (and even Irish once), and I respond "No. I am American, but I have some scottish ancestry, and my surname is a derivation of a scottish family name", (albeit lowlander and actually Norman/Flemish in origin). I only discovered this after I extended the work of my uncle in chasing the geneology bunny down the rabbit's hole several years ago and since. I too am a "mutt" or mongrel, of mixed heritage from all over Europe depending on how far back you chase each particular line, which include more than a dozen other names of scottish derivation or origin, both highland and lowland alike. And like others here my patrilineal ancestry traces back at least 13 documented generations in America extending to before 1700. We have gone from immigrant tenant farmers to founding landowners of the great state of Virginia, lost that property to a combination of climatic and political events, migrated to the frontier hills of what are now West Virginia where most of those 13 generations lived hand to mouth existences in hillside cabins and small riverside whistlestop towns on the only railroad through the area, and in the coal towns that pervaded nearly every "holler" in that otherwise undeveloped part of the world. My family came out of the hills when my paternal grandfather and grandmother, the first high school graduates I have been able to document in the family, left the state for Chicago when my grandfather served in the Navy there during WWII, later returning to WV and raising the first college graduates documented in the family, my father and only one of his 4 younger siblings, both of whom also went on to graduate degrees and into the teaching profession. Of the offspring of my father's generation of siblings 10 of 11 completed college degrees, the 11th having recieved a full scholarship to a prestigious music school but dropped out only a couple unhappy years. In my own two elder children from my first marriage I see the "clogs to clogs" phenomenon that Jock speaks of, after each showed extremely advanced abilities early in their lives only to become average to slightly above or below average students at not prestigious or difficult colleges.

My "scottishness" is self defined, as, to the best of my knowledge and research, I am the only member of my american family to ever own, wear or even desire to wear a kilt, or for that matter any symbol of any of the myriad but distant heritages, and me only in the last 5 years after chasing my geneology extensively and discovering the remote (at least 20-22 generations remote) connection back to scotland, and several historical "family" castles and landholdings there. Even in Scotland, there were only a handfull or two generations there before my original Forrester progenitor is traced back to the Counts of Flanders and being a major player in the Norman Conquest of 1066 with William the Conqueror.

So not necessarily every third generation clog to clog, but from feudal lords in Flanders to a prominent landowning family in lowlands Scotland to less prominent gentlemen (assumption) in England to the New World as tenant farmers and then landowners and the, well, plain old hillfolk, to high school graduates to college graduates to honors student and professional degree and practice to average college students, we have pretty much been all over the scale from a degree of social and financial success standpoint. But we have not achieved our former social prominence of the days of Flanders or the south of Scotland/north of England, unless you want to count my recent "landed gentry-ship" achieved by the gifts of a few square feet of land in Scotland granting me the title of Laird of Dunans and Laird of Bandrum. A notch or two up from "clog", though, I guess.

[Downunder Kilt]

Your first line Forrester Modern is just the way I answer the same question. I am Australian with Scottish ancestors. The hyphenated Scots - ? or Whatever - ? has never been an Australian thing. To my way of thinking you are a citizen of the country your were born in or that you have obtained citizenship in. This hyphenated thing, maybe appropiate if you hold dual citizenship, but otherwise, I am of the opinion, that you can leave it at the door.

If you have various regional or nationality blood flowing thru your veins, as most of us do, where do you stop with the hyphens. Am I really Scot - English - Welsh - Australian or an Australian. I for one, am happy to describe myself as Australian

[BoldHighlander]

because unless you're an American Indian, or more correctly Native American, NOBODY in the U.S.A. is really "from here," if that makes any sense.

“My ancestors didn't come over on the Mayflower, but they were there to meet the boat.”
~ Will Rogers

Besides being a typical American "Heinz 57" or "Mutt", I'm a direct descendant of the Vann Chiefs & of Spring Frog (or Tooan Tuh / Yoosto; a great Cherokee war chief & their greatest stickball player). Way back when I was involved with AIM a.k.a. American Indian Movement (a whole story in itself) one thing that AIM continuously stressed is that if you (non-Indians) could not pronounce the correct tribal name (i.e. Lakota, Tsalagi, Só'taeo'o, Diné, etc) then they prefer to be called "American Indian" as opposed to the more politically correct "Native American". As AIM activist & movie actor Russell Means once said "anyone born in America is a Native American."

As for the wearing of the kilt, being a descendant of numerous Highland Scots who emigrated to this country prior to the American Revolution, I don't really feel I need to justify my wearing it, just as I don't feel compelled to justify the wearing of any other article of clothing I wear (rather kilted or not).

[BoldHighlander]

When kilted in a public and often crowded place I am quite frequently asked if I am scottish (and even Irish once), and I respond "No. I am American, but I have some scottish ancestry, and my surname is a derivation of a scottish family name"

Your first line Forrester Modern is just the way I answer the same question. I am Australian with Scottish ancestors. The hyphenated Scots - ? or Whatever - ? has never been an Australian thing. To my way of thinking you are a citizen of the country your were born in or that you have obtained citizenship in. This hyphenated thing, maybe appropiate if you hold dual citizenship, but otherwise, I am of the opinion, that you can leave it at the door.
If you have various regional or nationality blood flowing thru your veins, as most of us do, where do you stop with the hyphens. Am I really Scot - English - Welsh - Australian or an Australian. I for one, am happy to describe myself as Australian

HEAR! HEAR!

[Jock Scot]

Wow, the OP's question is a really big one in a lot of us Americans minds(mine included). When we kilt up, were not only showing our pride in our ancestors we are also showing how proud we are of our blood which is still alive in Scots. I view it as, imitation is the biggest form of flattery. Its very important to me that I do it as correct as possible because if a born Scot told me I was all jacked up, it would break my heart.

Scots should be honored greatly by the diaspora's imitation and interest in them, I hope they are.

Many Scots are completely mystified by all this. Using myself as an example here, I just don't understand this "cousin" thing, and "should be honoured", "flattered " stuff. Just because someone from Texas, North Island New Zealand, or, Western Australia has the same surname as me, well good for them, but they are not my "cousins"-----I know who my cousins are thank you and frankly I resent the description from those that have absolutely nothing to do with my family. Am I "honoured" that people should dress up in the kilt? In all honesty, I am not. Am I "flattered" that people outside Scotland wear the kilt? No I am not. I do think that a tartan kilt with all the right attire(OK, doing the best you can with what you have) to go with it and worn properly by non-Scots might be seen as a compliment to Scotland though and perhaps this is something that a website like this can work on.

I(we?) just regard the whole thing as you good people from outwith Scotland are just playing at being a Scot and that is fine by me if that is what you choose to do. Come and see Scotland it is a beautiful and interesting place, come and see where your ancestors came from and be proud of them by all means, come to Scotland and wear your kilt if that is what you want to do and all of these things I can understand full well. As to the rest well, I am sorry, but I just can not fathom your way of thinking one bit. If you are an American then be an American, if you are a Russian then be a Russian, if you are a Scot then be a Scot.

Sorry chaps, but I am only being honest.

[saxandpipes]

Very interesting discussion.

I don't want to get into the debate which is rising again, but would like to contribute to the discussion.

My mother's mother was Scottish and her father's mother was born in Scotland.

My father's mother's parents were Cornish. His father's father was born in New Zealand (I've only recently discovered this, the prior "knowledge" being that he was from Shetland... the name is certainly idicative of Shetland origin). His wife was also born in New Zealand to one Scottish and one English parent.

So, I'm a New Zealander, that's where I was born, that's what it says on my passport and birth certificate. End of story there.

But, we have always known that our family is (mostly) Scottish in origin. In some cases the connections are some generations back, in others it's as recent as living memory. My grandfather said we belong to the Gunn clan, and if it was good enough for him, then it's good enough for me to honour him, by honouring my heritage.

As far as how my immigrant ancestors fared in their new home, well, unexpectedly they did well for themselves. I've only really investigated one part of the Scottish connection so far (considering that the surname has passed on from my paternal grandfather's mother to him, my dad and me as a second family name).

The Downie's came from Dumfriesshire and 2 brothers left to go to New Zealand. (one was my great great grandfather). His nephews went to Southern Rhodesia and had some success (one unfortunately died in a mine that he managed) the other took over his estate and eventually went on to manage the national airline, was a member of parliament and ultimately became High Commissioner to Southern Rhodesia in London.



My great great grandfather Charles Downie settled in Murchison, New Zealand and worked with the brother of my great great grandmother (his brother in law) who had secured contracts to build the roads there in the area.


(the town as it was a year after he arrived)

He later took over the hotel and built a new, larger hotel on the opposite corner of the street.


(the new hotel)

He also owned a farm, a saw-mill, and a bullock team!





This picture is hanging in what is now the museum in the town (It was originally known as Downie's Hall, and was functioning as a sort of local court house).


(My great great granparents, Charles and Sarah Downie)

In the same museum I was shown a quote in a book describing how my great great grandmother (pictured above) had to travel by canoe to the nearest city some kms away via the river to the nearest hospital each time she was about to give birth- and she had 12 children!

Some of the children: (my great grandmother is on the left)



I have the book which contains most of the photos above at home.

The eldest brother of my great granndmother become the chairman of the local regional council. He was also master of the local Freemason lodge.

My grandfather Eustace Clifford Downie Jamieson (the grandson of Charles Downie above) started his own business in 1947 after serving in WWII and built up a large family company. His sons (my father included) took over eventually and it grew to become the largest family owned business of it's type in the country. A branch of the business is still operated by my father, sister and 2 brothers today. I guess I'm the odd one out... (some might call me the black sheep)

I am proud of my family, and proud of it's Scottish origins. Of course I am more proud of what they did once they left Scotland, and what they did for my country. However, relatively speaking, I do far more to wave the flag as a Kiwi than I do as any kind of try-hard "kiwi-scot". Playing the pipes, and wearing the kilt on occasion is the least I can do to honour mine and my forebears' heritage.

Cheers!

Michael

[Lyle1]

Jock,

I agree that there is no reason that Scots should feel honored (Am. spelling) or flattered that Americans wear kilts or remember their Scottish heritage. Though, I honestly don't think most Americans wear a kilt, or otherwise keep other customs having an ethnic origin, with the intent of doing anything but please themselves. As Americans, most of us are quite accustomed to being told by citizens of other countries that the American way of doing things is inferior to the ________ (insert country name) way of doing it, or that what we are doing is simply wrong no matter how well we do it. Well, quite frankly I don't think most Americans even care what people from other countries think of our way of life, but we do often wish they would keep their criticism to themselves.

There was a wave of concern about "diversity" in America a few years ago. One of the basic ideas of the was that in order to coexist with people who have different beliefs and life styles, it is helpful to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the differences, however, the fundamental principle was the it was absolutely necessary that people respect the beliefs and feelings of other people regardless of the differences. In simpler terms, we all have the right to be ourselves, and it is sometimes required of us that we accept that other people have a legitimate right to hold differing opinions, and everyone should respect and even accommodate the beliefs and customs of others. The members of this forum live in many countries, and though we have our interest in kilts in common, we are all unique individuals with very different outlooks based on our own personal preferences and frames of references. We do not each have to agree with the ideas or opinions of every other member, but understanding what another person believes and why he holds that belief can be enlightening. Perhaps accepting that there are differing ways of doing things and validating each member's right to be him or herself is something that a website like this could work on.