Native Scots vs the scottish diaspora

[Lyle1]

Jock,

I agree that there is no reason that Scots should feel honored (Am. spelling) or flattered that Americans wear kilts or remember their Scottish heritage. Though, I honestly don't think most Americans wear a kilt, or otherwise keep other customs having an ethnic origin, with the intent of doing anything but please themselves. As Americans, most of us are quite accustomed to being told by citizens of other countries that the American way of doing things is inferior to the ________ (insert country name) way of doing it, or that what we are doing is simply wrong no matter how well we do it. Well, quite frankly I don't think most Americans even care what people from other countries think of our way of life, but we do often wish they would keep their criticism to themselves.

There was a wave of concern about "diversity" in America a few years ago. One of the basic ideas of the was that in order to coexist with people who have different beliefs and life styles, it is helpful to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the differences, however, the fundamental principle was the it was absolutely necessary that people respect the beliefs and feelings of other people regardless of the differences. In simpler terms, we all have the right to be ourselves, and it is sometimes required of us that we accept that other people have a legitimate right to hold differing opinions, and everyone should respect and even accommodate the beliefs and customs of others. The members of this forum live in many countries, and though we have our interest in kilts in common, we are all unique individuals with very different outlooks based on our own personal preferences and frames of references. We do not each have to agree with the ideas or opinions of every other member, but understanding what another person believes and why he holds that belief can be enlightening. Perhaps accepting that there are differing ways of doing things and validating each member's right to be him or herself is something that a website like this could work on.

[clanciankent]

The "native" Scots or Irish or English don`t seem to worry too much about adopting American culture and dress-the our towns are filled with people wearing American baseball caps,"gangsta" necklaces and jewellery and using terms like "Feds" for the police.I say the diaspora have every right to their ancestors culture.

[RockyR]

The "native" Scots or Irish or English don`t seem to worry too much about adopting American culture and dress-the our towns are filled with people wearing American baseball caps,"gangsta" necklaces and jewellery and using terms like "Feds" for the police.I say the diaspora have every right to their ancestors culture.

You beat me to the same point, ClanCianKent.

With ABOSOLUTELY all due respect, I submit this statement: Perhaps as Americans, we're 'used to' the idea of other cultures borrowing from our pop culture, so it's not as big of an issue for us. That's not meant as an ethnocentirc statement or to be cocky or anything, just kind of thinking out loud.

[Dram]

The "native" Scots or Irish or English don`t seem to worry too much about adopting American culture and dress-the our towns are filled with people wearing American baseball caps,"gangsta" necklaces and jewellery and using terms like "Feds" for the police.I say the diaspora have every right to their ancestors culture.

Hilarious! I suspected it had oozed into other countries. Pity.

[Brett]

My paternal family came to Canada from Scotland 3 generations ago, my paternal Grandmothers family 1 generation ago and my and my maternal Grandfather 2 generations ago. Almost all of them wore kilts, admittedly more for military purposes than daily dress. Since as far as I can remember both my grandmothers had tartan items all over the house in many different forms simply for the love of it and as items passed down through the family.

I view the kilt and the love of tartans a family tradition. I view the love of many things scottish as a family tradition. So I don't really view the kilt as soley belonging to those living in Scotland. They can claim it if they like, but if they do, given the fairly brief history of kilts and "family tartans" I think they suffer the same romantic notions they accuse decendents in other parts of the world of.

The best I can offer is that I will do my best to not make a mockery of the kilt when I wear it. It's the reason I came to this site to learn as much as I can.

As boldhighlander said: "I don't really feel I need to justify my wearing it, just as I don't feel compelled to justify the wearing of any other article of clothing I wear (rather kilted or not)." I don't think anyone else should either, wether born in Scotland, 2,3,4 generations removed, or no connection at all other than an appreciation for the garb.

To be honest, after reading many of the articles here and other places regarding the history of kilts, I almost feel a little silly wearing a "clan tartan". It appears that many clan tartans were simply made up and really don't have much history of being worn by people with that surname. I would imagine that with my family coming to Canada in the mid 19th century they probably had never even heard of McCallum tartan and if they wore plaids, were likely the tartan of whatever local mill produced near the Isle of Mull.

Given the history of the modern kilt and clan tartans, if I'm playing make-believe, scots dress-up when I don my kilt and argyle jacket than so are a great many scots when they do the same. I'm really ok with that, I think playing dress-up is fun and brings out the kid in all of us wether born in Scotland or anywhere else in the world.

[saxandpipes]

My paternal family came to Canada from Scotland 3 generations ago, my paternal Grandmothers family 1 generation ago and my and my maternal Grandfather 2 generations ago. Almost all of them wore kilts, admittedly more for military purposes than daily dress. Since as far as I can remember both my grandmothers had tartan items all over the house in many different forms simply for the love of it and as items passed down through the family.

I view the kilt and the love of tartans a family tradition. I view the love of many things scottish as a family tradition. So I don't really view the kilt as soley belonging to those living in Scotland. They can claim it if they like, but if they do, given the fairly brief history of kilts and "family tartans" I think they suffer the same romantic notions they accuse decendents in other parts of the world of.

The best I can offer is that I will do my best to not make a mockery of the kilt when I wear it. It's the reason I came to this site to learn as much as I can.

As boldhighlander said: "I don't really feel I need to justify my wearing it, just as I don't feel compelled to justify the wearing of any other article of clothing I wear (rather kilted or not)." I don't think anyone else should either, wether born in Scotland, 2,3,4 generations removed, or no connection at all other than an appreciation for the garb.

To be honest, after reading many of the articles here and other places regarding the history of kilts, I almost feel a little silly wearing a "clan tartan". It appears that many clan tartans were simply made up and really don't have much history of being worn by people with that surname. I would imagine that with my family coming to Canada in the mid 19th century they probably had never even heard of McCallum tartan and if they wore plaids, were likely the tartan of whatever local mill produced near the Isle of Mull.

Given the history of the modern kilt and clan tartans, if I'm playing make-believe, scots dress-up when I don my kilt and argyle jacket than so are a great many scots when they do the same. I'm really ok with that, I think playing dress-up is fun and brings out the kid in all of us wether born in Scotland or anywhere else in the world.

I agree! (although, I'm trying not to get dragged into the "argument" present here).

My mother inherited kilts from her grandmother, a native Scot, so, obviously, she was ok with her descendents, the diaspora, carrying on the traditions of her homeland. That's good enough for me!

Not all of the diaspora (Canada, Australia, NZ etc.) originally left Scotland because they wanted to...

Ok, fine... I've been dragged in...

Maybe only descendents of Sir Walter Scott should wear kilts!

Cheers!

Michael

[seanachie]

This concept of "native Scots" is pretty interesting to me and I am not trying to split hairs and I understand the thread deals with those of both birth and ancestry. I do not know the specifics of UK citizenship laws, however, in the US someone born here retains citizenship. So an American can have Greek, Chinese, Colombian citizen parents and siblings.

I was in Inverness last year at this time. When I went to the local Catholic Church there were many Poles, and they had children. If those children are born in Scotland are they not then Scottish? I also ate at the Italian pizza place right by the railroad station, and while waiting for a table fell into conversation with a few of the wait staff who were not native born if they were to marry native Scots and have children are they not then Scots?

The reason I ask this is how this will impact the culture over a period of time as it has in places like America and how that will potentially change the definition of how Scottish culture will be defined.

Because of the weird boundaries I live a stones throw from a few neighborhoods that are actually Los Angeles city. It would take me maybe ten minutes or so to drive from my home to areas where English would be a real rarity and the entire culture, food, shops etc would be very different from the culture I grew up in Boston. Both in America but very different.

[ThistleDown]

Yes, even before the large influx of 'settlers' from all over in the past fifty years, Scotland was a land of incomers. That constant in- and out-flow of blood made the culture we have today, and continuing the flow will further enrich us in the future.

Personally I don't understand the title of this thread since I know of very, very few Scots who reject the complement when the kilt is worn by non-Scots. They may be a bit soured that their own pipe bands are consistently beaten by those of other lands, but they see that as a criticism of themselves and don't cry out that the pipes should only be played at home. That's what we get for having such fine national garb and such a blood-stirring musical instrument. Others want them, too

[Whidbey78]

In response to the OP: Though there are many Scottish immigrants and descendants around the world, going back several centuries, who did extremely well for themselves and/or did great things for their respective countries, by and large I would think that the number of them most would call prosperous, influential, important, etc., is probably about the same, percentage-wise, as most other groups from the same general part of the world. It's probably very comparable to the number of accomplished English, French, Germans, etc. Perhaps Scots(and their descendants) fared better than average, perhaps it's just that we notice them more readily because we're looking for them. I really can't say.

On the "side topic" about honoring Scottish heritage, ancestors' native land, or simply honoring and showing respect for Scotland (regardless of ancestry): If someone from outside Scotland wants to wear a kilt out of respect for, or in honor of, their heritage, more power to them. If he wants to wear it because he respects, admires or just enjoys the country and its culture (or even a romantic idea he may have of it), that's cool too. If he wears it simply because he participates in Highland Games, or finds it to be a very comfortable garment, or likes the look of the kilt, or because he wishes to identify with another culture (his ancestors culture or not), that's his right too. If he opted to wear a Starfleet uniform everyday, who's to stop him?

Scots living in Scotland don't seem to get why people from elsewhere do it, and that's fine. I think we can all respect that position. They don't see it as an "honor" that others wear the kilt. I get that. They probably shouldn't. We may see it as flattery, but they don't. They should also not take it as an insult. In some ways it is a bit insulting, but it's unintentional and the offending activity is done with good intentions. It's simply a case of one party feeling a connection to another place, people and culture-- and expressing it in their own way-- while the other party doesn't feel the same connection and/or doesn't understand why the connection is felt.

I encountered the same thing when overseas in the Navy. I would meet people who were absolutely fascinated, even obsessed, with American culture, or what they interpreted it to be. Sometimes they seemed almost like Americans who put on a foreign accent. Most of the time, though, they seemed more like actors who didn't research the part and just put on the costume and took the stage. In both cases I knew they really couldn't understand being an American anymore than I could understand being Saudi, Filipino, Brazilian, or Greek. I wasn't insulted, or flattered. They felt a strong draw toward my culture and acted on it based on what they could learn (or chose to learn) about it. That's not to say that it wasn't irritating at times. I couldn't even explain to them that their McDonald's, Nikes and Coca-Cola were not quite the same as ours. No biggie. World keeps spinning, right?

I'm roughly 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Scottish, and half Welsh. I'm sure there are Englishmen, Normans, Vikings and others in the family tree as well. Heck, I could be one of the .5% that are supposedly descendants of Ghengis Khan! But, that's not why I choose to wear a kilt. I just like it. I respect the people, culture, and country it represents, but that had little influence on my choice. (I'd be lying if I said it had no influence though.) I tried it...I liked it. I kept doing it. No justification needed. It's just what I choose to do. It's not a statement...it's what I wear. No offense intended, no apologies needed.


Just my two cents, and not meant to be insulting or taken badly by anyone.

[Jock Scot]

In response to the OP: Though there are many Scottish immigrants and descendants around the world, going back several centuries, who did extremely well for themselves and/or did great things for their respective countries, by and large I would think that the number of them most would call prosperous, influential, important, etc., is probably about the same, percentage-wise, as most other groups from the same general part of the world. It's probably very comparable to the number of accomplished English, French, Germans, etc. Perhaps Scots(and their descendants) fared better than average, perhaps it's just that we notice them more readily because we're looking for them. I really can't say.

On the "side topic" about honoring Scottish heritage, ancestors' native land, or simply honoring and showing respect for Scotland (regardless of ancestry): If someone from outside Scotland wants to wear a kilt out of respect for, or in honor of, their heritage, more power to them. If he wants to wear it because he respects, admires or just enjoys the country and its culture (or even a romantic idea he may have of it), that's cool too. If he wears it simply because he participates in Highland Games, or finds it to be a very comfortable garment, or likes the look of the kilt, or because he wishes to identify with another culture (his ancestors culture or not), that's his right too. If he opted to wear a Starfleet uniform everyday, who's to stop him?

Scots living in Scotland don't seem to get why people from elsewhere do it, and that's fine. I think we can all respect that position. They don't see it as an "honor" that others wear the kilt. I get that. They probably shouldn't. We may see it as flattery, but they don't. They should also not take it as an insult. In some ways it is a bit insulting, but it's unintentional and the offending activity is done with good intentions. It's simply a case of one party feeling a connection to another place, people and culture-- and expressing it in their own way-- while the other party doesn't feel the same connection and/or doesn't understand why the connection is felt.

I encountered the same thing when overseas in the Navy. I would meet people who were absolutely fascinated, even obsessed, with American culture, or what they interpreted it to be. Sometimes they seemed almost like Americans who put on a foreign accent. Most of the time, though, they seemed more like actors who didn't research the part and just put on the costume and took the stage. In both cases I knew they really couldn't understand being an American anymore than I could understand being Saudi, Filipino, Brazilian, or Greek. I wasn't insulted, or flattered. They felt a strong draw toward my culture and acted on it based on what they could learn (or chose to learn) about it. That's not to say that it wasn't irritating at times. I couldn't even explain to them that their McDonald's, Nikes and Coca-Cola were not quite the same as ours. No biggie. World keeps spinning, right?

I'm roughly 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Scottish, and half Welsh. I'm sure there are Englishmen, Normans, Vikings and others in the family tree as well. Heck, I could be one of the .5% that are supposedly descendants of Ghengis Khan! But, that's not why I choose to wear a kilt. I just like it. I respect the people, culture, and country it represents, but that had little influence on my choice. (I'd be lying if I said it had no influence though.) I tried it...I liked it. I kept doing it. No justification needed. It's just what I choose to do. It's not a statement...it's what I wear. No offense intended, no apologies needed.


Just my two cents, and not meant to be insulting or taken badly by anyone.

A well thought out post, if I may say so and I for one, take not one bit of offence.