DNA Genealogy

[Dram]

Hi Mike,

I think MacSpadger is quite thorough in his response, and it makes a great deal of sense considering there is indeed a Montgomeryshire in Wales. Cambro-Norman in origin?

Makes me think of the Scottish golfer Colin Montgomery

I just had a look and found that FTDNA does have a Montgomery (and variant spellings) surname project. So if your surname is Montgomery you'd be eligible to join...not sure if they are still doing it but they used to offer a discount if you were involved in a project.

I also had a look at the results page of the Montgomery project...it appears that the most frequent (to date) haplogroup is J2a with the vast majority indicating Scotland or Ireland as the origin of their farthest known ancestor. The second most common was R1b1a2 wich is what I have and is one of the most known in the British Isles (this probably is a Gaelic signature). The third group I see represented but at a far less frequency is I1 and 12...interesting because this would indeed show that some with the surname Montgomery descended from a Scandinavian ancestor (This could be Norman).

What I find most interesting is the frequency of J2 in the Scottish Montgomerys according to the test results...If you happen to test and find you are a J2 you'll have to hunt around on the internet to see what the consensus is as to how that haplogroup arrrived in the British Isles (and in particualr to Scotland). MY opinion and only MY opinion (I havent spent enough time researching this) is that, considering J2 is found predominently far south it may have been brought to Britain by the Romans however, it may very well be French which then would have been brought during the Norman conquest. If Roman maybe this has some connection to Wales?

Anyway, I am only speculating...we dont even know if you're J2 at this point and I don't want to confuse you (not as much as I confuse myself anyhow ). You'll have a lot of reading a head of you if you are J2.

[RAF]

I apologize in advance for the not so quick quick reply.
So, I've received my results. It appears my Haplogroup is I1, and shorthand YCC is
I-M253. With this info I fumbled my way into the SNP Map. (It's like learning a foreign language!) This map didn't really tell me too much I didn't already know - mostly UK and German lineage. Where I get really turned around is on the Ancestral Origins page. There are several countries (19) which are an "exact match" at the 12 marker level. (And no matches at 25, 37, or 67 markers.) What are they a match to? I have to say I feel like a complete fool - I can't figure out what most of this really means. "Page Help" says these are "paternal countries of origin" - each with various amounts of "match totals." Is this saying that my paternal line can be traced to 19 different countries? And again, match totals? Page Help says this is the "total number of matches for a specific country." Maybe I'm just being thick here, but I don't find that explanation very helpful. I'll give the example of Germany, which has the highest Match Totals (26). Are there 26 Germans in the database that are DNA matches to me? Is it that straightforward? Eventhough I don't really know what this means, this somehow makes sense, since I know my Great-Great Grandfather was German (although I don't know from where specifically.) If any X members have any advice or insight on this process, I welcome your information and/or assistance. Perhaps I'm looking for more than is there? I was hoping I might find an answer to a genealogical stumbling block I've faced for awhile now - where in Germany was Great Great grand pappy from? And hopefully from this I could learn who were his parents and siblings. Perhaps I had wrong/unrealistic expectations of the Y-DNA 67 test. I know there are multiple, specialized tests. I thought I had chosen the best one to help me find some answers. Any suggestions on the test that would suit my search needs? Or is it a matter of allowing more data to be compiled, before more answers reveal themselves? In "Y-DNA Matches" there are 138 exact matches at the 12 marker level. And again, no matches at 25, 37, or 67 markers. Are these people distant relations? I'm sorry if I'm overcomplicating this - not sure how or why I have such a block with this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Dram]

Where I get really turned around is on the Ancestral Origins page. There are several countries (19) which are an "exact match" at the 12 marker level. (And no matches at 25, 37, or 67 markers.) What are they a match to?

Yes, you are matching 19 different countries however, that only shows that your Y-DNA has spread into countries other than where it originated (Germany in your case). What's important is the percentage that you match at various levels. For example: I match Ireland at 2.9% which is considered signifcant and points to Ireland as being the origination of my Y-DNA...I also have a match in Puerto Rico...what that means is that at some point someone with an Irish signature immigrated to Puerto Rico and now their descendant has reported Puerto Rico as where their furthest traceable ancestor lived. So be sure to look at how often Germany repeats at the various genetic distances (of course you know Germany is the highest in your case) and what it recommends as a percent.

I'll give the example of Germany, which has the highest Match Totals (26). Are there 26 Germans in the database that are DNA matches to me? Is it that straightforward? Eventhough I don't really know what this means, this somehow makes sense, since I know my Great-Great Grandfather was German (although I don't know from where specifically.)

It appears out of the Y-DNA database 12,042 people claim Germany as the origination of their most distant Ancestor. You match 26 people of this sample, which, if out of all the 19 countries is the highest frequency for you then it confirms your German Y-DNA.

where in Germany was Great Great grand pappy from? And hopefully from this I could learn who were his parents and siblings. Perhaps I had wrong/unrealistic expectations of the Y-DNA 67 test. I know there are multiple, specialized tests. I thought I had chosen the best one to help me find some answers.

That question can still be answered. I would contact your closest matches lets say 37 markers with a distance of one, or 67 markers with a distance of 4 or less. Some of these folks may know where their German ancestor lived within Germany...heck some may even still be living in that part of Germany. Another important thing to do would be to join a surname project if one is available for your surname. The project administrator may be a useful tool...they can also help interpret your results. Don't forget the database is constantly growing and you can always end up finding a match in the future.

In "Y-DNA Matches" there are 138 exact matches at the 12 marker level. And again, no matches at 25, 37, or 67 markers. Are these people distant relations?

Yes, those 12 marker matches are distant relatives you may have been related to them 1000 years ago or more however. As far as you having no matches at 25, 37, 67 have you checked the various distances? Be sure to use "ALL" and run individual reports for 37 and 67. If it turns out you don't match at 37, or 67 you may very well get more matches in the near future.

[Dram]

Here are my actual screen shots for my ancestral Y-DNA origin RAF. Here you can see how Ireland is extrapolated:

Some countries with low numbers of test subjects of course will increase a percentage...what can be seen here however, is that Ireland recurs:

[MacGumerait]

Dram and MacSpadger ,

Thank you both for all the information and taking the time and effort to repsond .

MacSpadger , I was aware of some of the Welsh and Norman background , however , I did not know all info that you provided and it is most appreciated and helpful . Great grandfather claimed that we came form a different branch , however , as you stated , verbal history and documented history are very often two different things . Your 30 year search into your own family is outstanding and it is remarkable that you can share history on my surname with such detail . I will definitely check on the public records .

Great grandfather may have been taught to shun that side of the family given that the Montgomery nobles caused a family bankruptcy . After all he was born in 1874 just 39 years after the 1835 bankruptcy , this sometimes happens in families .

Dram , your knowledge of the DNA side of things blows me away . I found this info very intriguing . I will certainly have to pursue this avenue as well . My surname is Montgomery and I will check out the project .

I agree , the high frequency of the J2 among the Montgomery Scots is most interesting . If this represents a connection to a bloodline more southern such as Romans etc. , then perhaps it adds some credence to the two historical theroies about the deriviation of the Montgomery name .

1. A Roman general named Gommericci ( the spelling may be off ) that was part of the occupying force of Britain at the time and the family he may have started while there .

2. An ancient Greek philospher ( not well known ) named Gomer and his followers / offspring were known as Monsgomericus - people of Gomer's Mount .

Just a thought , it may have nothing to do with the DNA evidence .

Given that the Montgomery nobles went bankrupt in 1835 , we may actually have some tie to an ancient Greek named Gomer and if truth be known , he may actually have ran a chariot repair shop ( rather than being a philospher )in ancient Greece in the town of Mayberrius ! ( just a little Andy Griffith show reference ) One can't take one's self too awfully seriously .

No matter what the outcome , my thanks to both of you gentleman for your time , knowledge and response .

Sincerely , Mike

[SeumasA]

RAF, let me take a shot at it for you. When you sign up with familytreedna they ask the origin of your most distant known ancestor. They use this for the ancestral origins page. So, in your case, you had 26 people who match you at the 12 marker level who stated that their most distant known ancestor came from Germany.
These people may not be close relatives. Matches at the 12 marker level could be people who have a common ancestor with you that is several hundred years back. If you have an exact match with someone who has a different surname, that common ancestor could be from the time frame before surnames were in common use, that is at least four or five hundred years ago.
I personally don't put much stock in matches at the 12 marker level. To me, they're interesting but not much help in researching my family history. I'd pay more attention to matches at the 37 marker level and above, even if they're not exact. If you're only one or two markers off at that level, you probably still have a close enough relationship to at least give you an idea of the area to look at. In my case, my closest match is 35 of 37 markers. We're both at dead ends in the mountains of North Carolina in Revolutionary War times. We know there's a relationship there somewhere, we just haven't uncovered the paper trail yet.
Don't be discouraged if you don't see results immediately. Think of it as a long term project. There are more and more people testing every day and sooner or later you'll get a hit.

[RAF]

Dram and SeumasA, Thank you for your insights! I ordered the Y-DNA 67 test, and I think I have reviewed 25, 37, and 67 marker levels correctly (with no matches.) But I will try again to see if there are any matches at the higher levels. Before I spend any more money on additional tests, I want to make sure I'm getting the most from (and understanding!) what I have so far.

[cck]

I've been involved in this for a while and have looked through thousands of names with no results other than one person they labeled a close relative. He was a close relative I already knew, so the system does work. We keep forgetting they can only identify people who have sent in specimens. As the program base grows so will the matching and the information they can work with.

[Dram]

RAF,

This is from Wikipaedia:

"Haplogroup I-M253 (M253, M307, P30, P40) displays a very clear frequency gradient, with a peak frequency of approximately 35% among the populations of southern Norway, southwestern Sweden, and Denmark, and rapidly decreasing frequencies toward the edges of the historically Germanic-influenced world. A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

Outside Fennoscandia, distribution of Haplogroup I-M253 is closely correlated with that of Haplogroup I-M436; but among Scandinavians (including both Germanic and Uralic peoples of the region) nearly all the Haplogroup I Y-chromosomes are I-M253. Another characteristic of the Scandinavian I-M253 Y-chromosomes is their rather low haplotype diversity (STR diversity): a greater variety of Haplogroup I-M253 Y-chromosomes has been found among the French and Italians, despite the much lower overall frequency of Haplogroup I-M253 among the modern French and Italian populations."

If you don't mind can you private message me your surname? This info would probably point to Northern Germany...if I had to guess I'd say Shleiswig Holstein. Is your surname patronymic with an ending of sen/son?

[WVHighlander]

Well I have my 25 marker results and am waiting on the 37. As it stands now it looks like I am going to be

R1b1a2 short hand R-M269

From what I can gather this means I have Celtic paternal ancestry. However, if anyone can build on this and provide places to look/learn for myself, I would be appreciative.

Interestingly enough, as it stand I have less than 20 exact matches in the 25 marker range. This is a significant decrease from my over 1300 12 marker match. I am anxious to see how much more 37 will neck this down for me.