Scots-Irish

[Blackrose87]

I visited Politics.ie daily for about six months so I am aware of the language. But you definitely have to have more than a passing interest in Irish politics to hang around that site much.

I'm a member on there too, although I haven't been on in a while. Discussions definitely get heated on there, especially in the Northern Ireland section.
I'd recomend it to anyone with an interest in Irish politics.

[Nick the DSM]

I've heard of Ullans and Ulster-Scots, but it was due to my attempts at learning Gaelic.

Also, I love learning things so I read up on stuff. So that's how I stumbled on it.

Yay learning!

[Blackrose87]

I would place myself in the top 15-25 percent of culturally aware Scots Irish Americans and my awareness does not reach to Ullans

Can I ask what aspects of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish culture you are aware of? Not scots culture, but specifically Ulster-Scots.

[ctbuchanan]

@guinness>water "Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have greatly enjoyed reading it.

I guess I fit among the many others here, my last name (McCormick) is found both in Scotland and Ireland but I am unable to find my ancestor from across the sea. I highly suspect that he went from Scotland to Ulster and then to America. So again, what am I? Scot, Irish, Scot-Irish? Who knows!

I chose to join a Scottish clan and enjoy celebrating my Scottish(?) ancestry.
Last edited by Guinness>water; Today at 03:00 PM.
Clan Maclaine of Lochbuie, Texas Commissioner
Vincere Vel Mori"

There have been threads about septs and clans. I just happened to notice that your surname is McCormick and you have selected Maclaine as your clan affiliation and you appear very active. And while McCormick is a sept of Maclaine it is also a very large sept of Buchanan and up our way almost every MacCormack (and McCormick) I know is a member of the Clan Buchanan. Interesting.

[McElmurry]

Can I ask what aspects of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish culture you are aware of? Not scots culture, but specifically Ulster-Scots.

To be honest I don’t think I have a good understanding of Ulster-Scot culture even after some effort to understand NI. For instance I believe there are some sports that are more associated with one community or the other and if I recall correctly rugby is supported by both communities. But besides the Orange Order and marching season and accordion bands I can’t name a food, musical instrument, art form, or social organization that is uniquely Ulster-Scots.

In a brief search just now I came across an impressive list of street, skipping, and ball games that included rhyming songs. Are these activates unique to the Ulster-Scots community? Have they been replaced by TV, internet, and video games?

[Blackrose87]

To be honest I don’t think I have a good understanding of Ulster-Scot culture even after some effort to understand NI. For instance I believe there are some sports that are more associated with one community or the other and if I recall correctly rugby is supported by both communities. But besides the Orange Order and marching season and accordion bands I can’t name a food, musical instrument, art form, or social organization that is uniquely Ulster-Scots.

In a brief search just now I came across an impressive list of street, skipping, and ball games that included rhyming songs. Are these activates unique to the Ulster-Scots community? Have they been replaced by TV, internet, and video games?

Well yes, certain sports are associated more with one community. Gaelic football and hurling tend to be played mostly by the Catholic community, while rugby generally is considered more of a Protestant sport. And although football is played and watched by both, there are very strong associations with teams. Both with local teams, national teams and with Celtic/Rangers.

I suppose the main associated Ulster-Scots organisations would be the Orange Order, and the Apprentice boys, but there are many community groups that would be affiliated with the local presbyterian/ free Presbyterian churches.
Then the Boord o Ulstèr-Scots was setup as a counterpart to Foras na Gaeilge, to promote the language. It's my understanding that they organise different meetings, dances, poetry and storytelling nights etc. They also do summer camps for children, and promote teaching through the use of Ulster-Scots in schools.

The only instrument related to Ulster-Scots I can think of is the Lambeg drum, which they use in marches and pipe bands. As far as I'm aware, the instruments isn't generally used in Scotland, so could be a uniquely Ulster-Scots thing.

I'm not sure about any of the street or ball games, but I would assume that some of them may have become more widespread, and so aren't considered solely Ulster-Scots traditions anymore, but northern Irish traditions.
But just as I would know Irish nationalist songs that many Ulster-Scots wouldn't, I'm sure there's hundred of Ulster-Scots songs I have no knowledge of. In fact, 'The Sash' is the only Ulster-Scots song I can think of off the top of my head.

[MacLowlife]

Can I ask what aspects of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish culture you are aware of? Not scots culture, but specifically Ulster-Scots.

I am not sure what I can say here that will satisfy. My original comment referred to Scots Irish culture in America, or was intended to. I have made several references to ALBION'S SEED as well as my ancestral connections to the Ulster Scots. I have attempted to cite aspects of life among American descendants of Ulster Scots that I believe connect directly with their forbears. Without being an academic or resorting to pedantry, I will say that I am a literate, well-read professional.

Last night I was eating with friends. We were discussing genealogy and the changes wrought in the field by dna testing. My companions were a historian, a doctor of Material Physics, and two lawyers. One lived in London for a year and retains an interest in British culture. The other devoted several years of his life to travel through Europe and the Middle East and maintains an international legal practice. I would suggest that, for sheer academic credentials, literary curiosity, and brainpower, my four companions were as cultured a group as you might hope to encounter outside of academia or perhaps some embassy. All five of us were born in South Carolina and have some degree of Ulster Scots ancestry.

I asked about Ullans and none of them knew what I was talking about.

[Blackrose87]

I am not sure what I can say here that will satisfy. My original comment referred to Scots Irish culture in America, or was intended to. I have made several references to ALBION'S SEED as well as my ancestral connections to the Ulster Scots. I have attempted to cite aspects of life among American descendants of Ulster Scots that I believe connect directly with their forbears. Without being an academic or resorting to pedantry, I will say that I am a literate, well-read professional.

Last night I was eating with friends. We were discussing genealogy and the changes wrought in the field by dna testing. My companions were a historian, a doctor of Material Physics, and two lawyers. One lived in London for a year and retains an interest in British culture. The other devoted several years of his life to travel through Europe and the Middle East and maintains an international legal practice. I would suggest that, for sheer academic credentials, literary curiosity, and brainpower, my four companions were as cultured a group as you might hope to encounter outside of academia or perhaps some embassy. All five of us were born in South Carolina and have some degree of Ulster Scots ancestry.

I asked about Ullans and none of them knew what I was talking about.

It seems that Ulster-Scots doesn't get the publicity that the Gaelic languages do in America.

I know it's quite common to ridicule the language, describing it as esoteric and so on, mostly by those within my political party and the whole nationalist community. But for the life of me I can't understand why. A huge amount of money is spent promoting and preserving Gaeilge in the north, so surely the Ulster-Scots should be afforded the right to preserve thier own culture and language?

In regards to your dinner party, I suppose I have made some incorrect assumptions based on what I have seen on this forum. It appeared to me that those of Scots ancestry, knew an awful lot not only about Scots history and culture in America, but also in Scotland. I was under the impressions, from what I've read, that most people where also quite up to date with the current politics and culture of modern day Scotland.
So I came to the conclusion that those of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish ancestry would be similiarly aware of both the history of Northern Ireland, and it's current political situation. But from your experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sorry if I offended you by jumping to that conclusion, but I didn't think it was that much of a ridiculous assumption to make.

[ForresterModern]

Blackrose87

I think it is a major misunderstanding to believe that even a small percentage of US descendants of the original Ulster-scots who emigrated to America, most of those descendants being 4-8 or more generations removed from that original immigrant, would even be knowledgeable of how Northern Ireland was formed and their Ulster-scot ancestors came to be there in the first place, let alone any current events therein. After all, the emigrants did leave for some likely unhappy reason, and found a better life in America and thrived there, among difficult conditions. Except for trying to bring other relatives over to America they would likely have not communicated a bit or cared a whit about from whence they came, except to keep family histories and family lines alive. Multiple generations later, multiple periods of warfare and economic strife and major migrations on this side of the Atlantic tends to make one more concerned about their own local situations rather than those of a distant, both physically and temporally, land and it's relatively unchanging politics over the same period. It is more than understandable, nay expected, that those scots-irish descendants would have little knowledge or concern of the social or political conditions of those that remain in Northern Ireland today. Same probably exists for direct Scots descendants of conditions in Scotland, although it is more likely that more scots immigrants may have come over more recently and thus their descendants may still have maintained ties and lines of communication and knowledge of Scotland politics, especially since they are less politically and religiously charged and polarized than those of NI.

[MacLowlife]

It seems that Ulster-Scots doesn't get the publicity that the Gaelic languages do in America.

I know it's quite common to ridicule the language, describing it as esoteric and so on, mostly by those within my political party and the whole nationalist community. But for the life of me I can't understand why. A huge amount of money is spent promoting and preserving Gaeilge in the north, so surely the Ulster-Scots should be afforded the right to preserve thier own culture and language?

In regards to your dinner party, I suppose I have made some incorrect assumptions based on what I have seen on this forum. It appeared to me that those of Scots ancestry, knew an awful lot not only about Scots history and culture in America, but also in Scotland. I was under the impressions, from what I've read, that most people where also quite up to date with the current politics and culture of modern day Scotland.
So I came to the conclusion that those of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish ancestry would be similiarly aware of both the history of Northern Ireland, and it's current political situation. But from your experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sorry if I offended you by jumping to that conclusion, but I didn't think it was that much of a ridiculous assumption to make.

I have to confess- I know nothing of the politics of Ullans. When you speak of the nationalist community, I can't be sure if you mean Scots nationalism or Irish.

I think Forrester is correct in observing that this topic is removed from most North Americans by much time and not a little space.

Arguably, some Ulster Scot ancestor of mine left siblings in Ulster and, possibly, those siblings begat descendants who continue to live there to this day. Assuming those on both sides of the Atlantic had children at the same rate, there may be a 50-ish Ulster Scot who is my seventh cousin. Out of my 128 great-however-many-times grandfathers, he and I share one. If I were on the roadside in South Carolina, walking with a gasoline can in my hand, a person who recognized me as his seventh cousin might stop and give me a ride. I expect there are such people, though I can't name them at the moment. I can probably name some fourth or fifth cousins here in this ancestor worshipping state. If I were to get out a genealogical chart and identify say, ten of the hundreds of such cousins I must have here in SC, and write to them requesting the loan of five dollars, I doubt I would find many helpers. And that is among those who live within a hundred miles of me. I am afraid that attenuated kinship is stretched even thinner when you extend it to a working knowledge of the politics and culture of distant kin in another country, thousands of miles away.

I will grant, there are probably some exceptions to my broad statement. There may be Israeli Americans who follow closely the politics and traditions of two such distantly related families. There may be individuals whose families hold hereditary monarchies or other inherited titles who pay close attention to the doings of their distant relations in other lands. I expect there are certain longstanding hereditary orders than encourage such knowledge. There are probably people who have met these distant cousins on the internet and have traveled to meet them and now exchange Christmas cards and birthday greetings. But in North America, where one internet genealogy site offers to help people find out who their great grandparents are ( yes.) I do not know of people who attach much significance to the daily culture of Ulster Scots who stayed behind.

I suppose the internet allows us to assume and conclude what we will. Dozens of people come to XMarks daily to discuss kilts. We are a community of kiltwearers- united by a piece of clothing. Many of us (out of those several dozens) are interested in some other aspects of Scots life, past or present, mundane or philosophical, practical or political- and linguistic. Unless and until I see something to the contrary, though, I am going to stick with my perception that those X Markers who can distinguish among the Gaelic tongues probably do so for some reason other than an Ulster Scot ancestor born around the American Revolution. Remove the self-selected tip of the iceberg- the XMarks factor, if you will, and you are going to have to look even harder to find a North American who knows what you have been talking about.

Again, I am not anyone's idea of a cunning linguist. I may be missing something that is all around. I am ready to admit my error when those people pipe up.

All the best
m'll