Scots-Irish

[MacLowlife]

Can I ask what aspects of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish culture you are aware of? Not scots culture, but specifically Ulster-Scots.

I am not sure what I can say here that will satisfy. My original comment referred to Scots Irish culture in America, or was intended to. I have made several references to ALBION'S SEED as well as my ancestral connections to the Ulster Scots. I have attempted to cite aspects of life among American descendants of Ulster Scots that I believe connect directly with their forbears. Without being an academic or resorting to pedantry, I will say that I am a literate, well-read professional.

Last night I was eating with friends. We were discussing genealogy and the changes wrought in the field by dna testing. My companions were a historian, a doctor of Material Physics, and two lawyers. One lived in London for a year and retains an interest in British culture. The other devoted several years of his life to travel through Europe and the Middle East and maintains an international legal practice. I would suggest that, for sheer academic credentials, literary curiosity, and brainpower, my four companions were as cultured a group as you might hope to encounter outside of academia or perhaps some embassy. All five of us were born in South Carolina and have some degree of Ulster Scots ancestry.

I asked about Ullans and none of them knew what I was talking about.

[Blackrose87]

I am not sure what I can say here that will satisfy. My original comment referred to Scots Irish culture in America, or was intended to. I have made several references to ALBION'S SEED as well as my ancestral connections to the Ulster Scots. I have attempted to cite aspects of life among American descendants of Ulster Scots that I believe connect directly with their forbears. Without being an academic or resorting to pedantry, I will say that I am a literate, well-read professional.

Last night I was eating with friends. We were discussing genealogy and the changes wrought in the field by dna testing. My companions were a historian, a doctor of Material Physics, and two lawyers. One lived in London for a year and retains an interest in British culture. The other devoted several years of his life to travel through Europe and the Middle East and maintains an international legal practice. I would suggest that, for sheer academic credentials, literary curiosity, and brainpower, my four companions were as cultured a group as you might hope to encounter outside of academia or perhaps some embassy. All five of us were born in South Carolina and have some degree of Ulster Scots ancestry.

I asked about Ullans and none of them knew what I was talking about.

It seems that Ulster-Scots doesn't get the publicity that the Gaelic languages do in America.

I know it's quite common to ridicule the language, describing it as esoteric and so on, mostly by those within my political party and the whole nationalist community. But for the life of me I can't understand why. A huge amount of money is spent promoting and preserving Gaeilge in the north, so surely the Ulster-Scots should be afforded the right to preserve thier own culture and language?

In regards to your dinner party, I suppose I have made some incorrect assumptions based on what I have seen on this forum. It appeared to me that those of Scots ancestry, knew an awful lot not only about Scots history and culture in America, but also in Scotland. I was under the impressions, from what I've read, that most people where also quite up to date with the current politics and culture of modern day Scotland.
So I came to the conclusion that those of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish ancestry would be similiarly aware of both the history of Northern Ireland, and it's current political situation. But from your experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sorry if I offended you by jumping to that conclusion, but I didn't think it was that much of a ridiculous assumption to make.

[MacLowlife]

It seems that Ulster-Scots doesn't get the publicity that the Gaelic languages do in America.

I know it's quite common to ridicule the language, describing it as esoteric and so on, mostly by those within my political party and the whole nationalist community. But for the life of me I can't understand why. A huge amount of money is spent promoting and preserving Gaeilge in the north, so surely the Ulster-Scots should be afforded the right to preserve thier own culture and language?

In regards to your dinner party, I suppose I have made some incorrect assumptions based on what I have seen on this forum. It appeared to me that those of Scots ancestry, knew an awful lot not only about Scots history and culture in America, but also in Scotland. I was under the impressions, from what I've read, that most people where also quite up to date with the current politics and culture of modern day Scotland.
So I came to the conclusion that those of Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish ancestry would be similiarly aware of both the history of Northern Ireland, and it's current political situation. But from your experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sorry if I offended you by jumping to that conclusion, but I didn't think it was that much of a ridiculous assumption to make.

I have to confess- I know nothing of the politics of Ullans. When you speak of the nationalist community, I can't be sure if you mean Scots nationalism or Irish.

I think Forrester is correct in observing that this topic is removed from most North Americans by much time and not a little space.

Arguably, some Ulster Scot ancestor of mine left siblings in Ulster and, possibly, those siblings begat descendants who continue to live there to this day. Assuming those on both sides of the Atlantic had children at the same rate, there may be a 50-ish Ulster Scot who is my seventh cousin. Out of my 128 great-however-many-times grandfathers, he and I share one. If I were on the roadside in South Carolina, walking with a gasoline can in my hand, a person who recognized me as his seventh cousin might stop and give me a ride. I expect there are such people, though I can't name them at the moment. I can probably name some fourth or fifth cousins here in this ancestor worshipping state. If I were to get out a genealogical chart and identify say, ten of the hundreds of such cousins I must have here in SC, and write to them requesting the loan of five dollars, I doubt I would find many helpers. And that is among those who live within a hundred miles of me. I am afraid that attenuated kinship is stretched even thinner when you extend it to a working knowledge of the politics and culture of distant kin in another country, thousands of miles away.

I will grant, there are probably some exceptions to my broad statement. There may be Israeli Americans who follow closely the politics and traditions of two such distantly related families. There may be individuals whose families hold hereditary monarchies or other inherited titles who pay close attention to the doings of their distant relations in other lands. I expect there are certain longstanding hereditary orders than encourage such knowledge. There are probably people who have met these distant cousins on the internet and have traveled to meet them and now exchange Christmas cards and birthday greetings. But in North America, where one internet genealogy site offers to help people find out who their great grandparents are ( yes.) I do not know of people who attach much significance to the daily culture of Ulster Scots who stayed behind.

I suppose the internet allows us to assume and conclude what we will. Dozens of people come to XMarks daily to discuss kilts. We are a community of kiltwearers- united by a piece of clothing. Many of us (out of those several dozens) are interested in some other aspects of Scots life, past or present, mundane or philosophical, practical or political- and linguistic. Unless and until I see something to the contrary, though, I am going to stick with my perception that those X Markers who can distinguish among the Gaelic tongues probably do so for some reason other than an Ulster Scot ancestor born around the American Revolution. Remove the self-selected tip of the iceberg- the XMarks factor, if you will, and you are going to have to look even harder to find a North American who knows what you have been talking about.

Again, I am not anyone's idea of a cunning linguist. I may be missing something that is all around. I am ready to admit my error when those people pipe up.

All the best
m'll

[Blackrose87]

I have to confess- I know nothing of the politics of Ullans. When you speak of the nationalist community, I can't be sure if you mean Scots nationalism or Irish.

I was talking of the Irish nationalist/Catholic community. While Ulster-Scots do consider themselves 100% British, they are still on the island of Ireland, so Scottish politics has absolutely nothing o do with it.

I am afraid that attenuated kinship is stretched even thinner when you extend it to a working knowledge of the politics and culture of distant kin in another country, thousands of miles away....


Remove the self-selected tip of the iceberg- the XMarks factor, if you will, and you are going to have to look even harder to find a North American who knows what you have been talking about.

I'll have to disagree on that point. I've met plenty of Irish-Americans in Ireland, while in America and online that know plenty about the history of Northern Ireland. Even those who havn't looked into the politics of the place are still aware of the Troubles and the basic underlying causes of the situation here.

Without going too deep into specifics, I'd say the majority of Irish-Americans are aware of the IRA, and have a knowledge of the reasons behind their campaign.
So I do think that it would be relatively easy to find a North American with a basic knowledge of Northern Ireland politics.

Go raibh mile maith agat,
Marteigh

[Lyle1]

I was talking of the Irish nationalist/Catholic community. While Ulster-Scots do consider themselves 100% British, they are still on the island of Ireland, so Scottish politics has absolutely nothing o do with it.

I'll have to disagree on that point. I've met plenty of Irish-Americans in Ireland, while in America and online that know plenty about the history of Northern Ireland. Even those who havn't looked into the politics of the place are still aware of the Troubles and the basic underlying causes of the situation here.

Without going too deep into specifics, I'd say the majority of Irish-Americans are aware of the IRA, and have a knowledge of the reasons behind their campaign.
So I do think that it would be relatively easy to find a North American with a basic knowledge of Northern Ireland politics.

Go raibh mile maith agat,
Marteigh

I have to agree with MacLowlife. There are too many differences between the Ulster-Scots and the Irish immigrants to the Americas to support your logic.

Most Ulster-Scots landed in the Americas when it was an English colony, and the Ulster-Scots entered as subjects of the same crown, or citizens, if you will, and were rather easily assimilated into the largely British population. Also, in the early 1700's, the colonies welcomed new settlers for many reasons, and the majority settled and helped hold open land.

The great waves of Irish, came in the mid 1800's. They were foreigners, poor, Catholic, and tended to settle in urban areas, because that's where they were most likely to be able to get job. The Irish were not welcomed as were the Ulster-Scots, and discrimination and even persecution was not uncommon. The Irish immigrants looked to one another for support and, sometimes, protection. Their sense of community, supported by their common religion, helped preserve traditions, and fond memories of the old country. This pattern of ethnic grouping was repeated into the next century as an enormous number of people came to the Americas from all over Europe. Many American cities still have neighborhoods that are populated largely by people with the same ethnic heritage.

As to why Americans are aware of the IRA and the history of Northern Ireland, I would suggest two factors:
1. The Irish ancestry of most Americans is recent, and the memories are still alive. When your grandparent tells a story about his grandparent, you have a closer connection than you do if the same story is told by someone who never knew the grandparent in the story.

2. Northern Ireland has been a news item fairly constantly for as long as I remember. I read about the troubles and watched newscasts on TV as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. What I know about Northern Ireland is more the result of what I've seen and heard on the news than it as about any legacy from my Irish ancestors.

[Blackrose87]

I have to agree with MacLowlife. There are too many differences between the Ulster-Scots and the Irish immigrants to the Americas to support your logic.

Most Ulster-Scots landed in the Americas when it was an English colony, and the Ulster-Scots entered as subjects of the same crown, or citizens, if you will, and were rather easily assimilated into the largely British population. Also, in the early 1700's, the colonies welcomed new settlers for many reasons, and the majority settled and helped hold open land.

The great waves of Irish, came in the mid 1800's. They were foreigners, poor, Catholic, and tended to settle in urban areas, because that's where they were most likely to be able to get job. The Irish were not welcomed as were the Ulster-Scots, and discrimination and even persecution was not uncommon. The Irish immigrants looked to one another for support and, sometimes, protection. Their sense of community, supported by their common religion, helped preserve traditions, and fond memories of the old country. This pattern of ethnic grouping was repeated into the next century as an enormous number of people came to the Americas from all over Europe. Many American cities still have neighborhoods that are populated largely by people with the same ethnic heritage.

As to why Americans are aware of the IRA and the history of Northern Ireland, I would suggest two factors:
1. The Irish ancestry of most Americans is recent, and the memories are still alive. When your grandparent tells a story about his grandparent, you have a closer connection than you do if the same story is told by someone who never knew the grandparent in the story.

2. Northern Ireland has been a news item fairly constantly for as long as I remember. I read about the troubles and watched newscasts on TV as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. What I know about Northern Ireland is more the result of what I've seen and heard on the news than it as about any legacy from my Irish ancestors.

I wasn't suggesting there were connections or similarities between the Scotch-Irish Americans and Irish Americans.
I was merely using them as an example in response to Maclowlifes claim that it would be hard to find any North American with knowledge of Northern Irish politics.

It seems from your post that Northern Irish politics are actually reported in America, if you were aware of them throughout your life.
So forgetting ancestry and heritage for a moment, its not unbelievable to think that North Americans would be aware and interested in the politics of my wee country, even though it is thousands of miles away.
Would there be many who have researched and studied the culture, history and politics of the place? Probably not. But I dont think its ridiculous to suggest there must be a reasonable enough percentage of Americans who are actually aware of the politics and history of the Northern Ireland.

[McElmurry]

I can see from your perspective that it might be hard to believe that decedents of immigrants from Ireland have a better understanding of NI politics than decedents of immigrants from Ulster. The Irish-Americans are just closer to each other and to the Emerald Isle both geographically and temporally.

The Scots have a great brand, they are well organized, and they are inclusive. If you have a name that fits the clan you’re in, and if you don't you’re in anyway. Many of Scots-Irish descent end up in the Scottish clan associations and societies.

[Blackrose87]

I am not sure what I can say here that will satisfy. My original comment referred to Scots Irish culture in America, or was intended to. I have made several references to ALBION'S SEED as well as my ancestral connections to the Ulster Scots. I have attempted to cite aspects of life among American descendants of Ulster Scots that I believe connect directly with their forbears. Without being an academic or resorting to pedantry, I will say that I am a literate, well-read professional.

Last night I was eating with friends. We were discussing genealogy and the changes wrought in the field by dna testing. My companions were a historian, a doctor of Material Physics, and two lawyers. One lived in London for a year and retains an interest in British culture. The other devoted several years of his life to travel through Europe and the Middle East and maintains an international legal practice. I would suggest that, for sheer academic credentials, literary curiosity, and brainpower, my four companions were as cultured a group as you might hope to encounter outside of academia or perhaps some embassy. All five of us were born in South Carolina and have some degree of Ulster Scots ancestry.

I asked about Ullans and none of them knew what I was talking about.

Onywey, I ken yer thochts aboot the hamely tongue. Mebbe it's no faur ben in Americae, but it's aye daein grand in norlin Airlann.