Heraldic symbolism on Colquhoun standard

[Cygnus]

The engrailed ordinary (in this case, the "scalloped" edges of the saltire) in the Stodart System of cadency (a system for making changes to arms based on heraldic seniority/birth order), is the mark of a second son. Having said that, I think in this case Chas is right, as most chiefly arms significantly predate the invention of the Stodart system.

[Chas]

The neck badge of a Baronet of Nova Scotia



Regards

Chas

[Chas]

The engrailed ordinary (in this case, the "scalloped" edges of the saltire) in the Stodart System of cadency (a system for making changes to arms based on heraldic seniority/birth order), is the mark of a second son. Having said that, I think in this case Chas is right, as most chiefly arms significantly predate the invention of the Stodart system.

I think the Stodart System is a perfect example of how theory and practice can be diametrically opposed.

In theory, the system should work well. In practice, from day one, there were too many armigers for the system to cope with. Once all the combinations had been used, any new creations would be forced to use a variety of charges rather than ordinaries. So there would be shields within the system and shields outside the system.

The basic error of Stodart and many other systems, is that it tries to be a genealogical record as well as a system of differences. What is required is a system of differences only. It matters not which son is second and which is seventh, provided that the shields are unique. If it mattered, to see it visually, then we would have it written on the shield - B/III/4 (second son of the third son of the fourth son). But no one would put up with that nonsense!

Regards

Chas

[Cygnus]

Though it's a bit beside the point, here's an exercise of mine to see how far the Stodart System could be taken (in many of the cases I admit that it is much too far).

More on topic - a lot of bucket shops and websites will tell you that the certain colours, patterns, shapes, and charges have particular meanings (red is for courage, blue is for nobility, etc.), and some of the meanings they cite even have some historical precedent as people have tried to assign meaning to such things in the past. In most cases, though , the reason that a coat of arms was designed the way it was is lost and attempts to assign meaning now really are futile.

Some arms are puns or visual representations of the bearer's surname (the arms of most Hunters include a hound and/or a hunting horn, and Lockharts seem to feature a heart in a lock or fetter pretty frequently). In those cases, the meaning is obvious - in other historical arms, if there ever was an intended meaning, I'm not sure how we could even begin to guess.

[creagdhubh]

Tobus,

As I am sure you know, heraldry is definitely a science in its own right, but like anything else, the more you research and learn, the more you will understand how it works as simply a means of personal identification. I tend to believe that heraldry, especially Scottish Heraldry, can easily confuse the novice heraldic student if they do not fully comprehend the basic fundamentals of heraldic principles and how they should be correctly applied and understood. Of course, the addition of numerous websites and literature on the subject can either prove to be resourceful and dependable tools, or pure rubbish with only snippets of accurate details.

There are many members of the Rabble who are extremely knowledgable when it comes to all things heraldic - especially those who are armigerous themselves. Personally, I have learned much from their intriguing and insightful contributions over the years.

Cheers,

[Mike_Oettle]

Just to recap on the Red Hand: yes, this is the badge of a baronet, but specifically a baronet of Ulster – baronetcies of this kind were originally created in connection with activities in the settlement of Protestants in that province of Ireland, whereas baronetcies of Nova Scotia involved the settlement of colonists on that Canadian island.
I believe the direct connection with Ulster fell away over time, but the Red Hand remained the badge of baronetcies other than those of Nova Scotia.
Bear in mind also that the rank of baronet is unique to the British Isles. It has no Continental equivalent, although it did have its roots in a misunderstanding by King James VI and I of the mediæval term knight banneret.
Regardless of the shortcomings of the Stodart system, it is a very effective way of identifying men of different branches of a family. The English equivalent (which exists more in theory than in practice) of combining the basic brisures in ever-decreasing size and grouped together, very quickly becomes impossible to follow.
Regards,
Mike

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

As I seem to recall, when I was in the Office of Arms in Dublin the practice was to use standard marks of cadency for the first generation, and Stoddart for all subsequent generations. Given all of the variations possible with Stoddart (including more than a dozen different lines of partition for the bordures!), and working on the assumption that there would be eight armigers in each generation, I believe we reckoned that it would take something like thirteen generations to exhaust all possible differences, at which point one could start over from the top, differencing by changing the tincture of the arms!

[creagdhubh]

As I seem to recall, when I was in the Office of Arms in Dublin the practice was to use standard marks of cadency for the first generation, and Stoddart for all subsequent generations. Given all of the variations possible with Stoddart (including more than a dozen different lines of partition for the bordures!), and working on the assumption that there would be eight armigers in each generation, I believe we reckoned that it would take something like thirteen generations to exhaust all possible differences, at which point one could start over from the top, differencing by changing the tincture of the arms!

I was waiting for you to chime in, Scott! Haha! Your heraldic expertise is always appreciated.

Cheers,

[Dixiecat]

Just to recap on the Red Hand: yes, this is the badge of a baronet, but specifically a baronet of Ulster – baronetcies of this kind were originally created in connection with activities in the settlement of Protestants in that province of Ireland, whereas baronetcies of Nova Scotia involved the settlement of colonists on that Canadian island.
I believe the direct connection with Ulster fell away over time, but the Red Hand remained the badge of baronetcies other than those of Nova Scotia.
Bear in mind also that the rank of baronet is unique to the British Isles. It has no Continental equivalent, although it did have its roots in a misunderstanding by King James VI and I of the mediæval term knight banneret.
Regardless of the shortcomings of the Stodart system, it is a very effective way of identifying men of different branches of a family. The English equivalent (which exists more in theory than in practice) of combining the basic brisures in ever-decreasing size and grouped together, very quickly becomes impossible to follow.
Regards,
Mike

Nova Scotia is not an island. However, Cape Breton Island is part of the province of Nova Scotia and saw a great deal of Scottish settlement and may figure in the Baronetcies of Nova Scotia.

[saharris]

Bear in mind also that the rank of baronet is unique to the British Isles. It has no Continental equivalent, although it did have its roots in a misunderstanding by King James VI and I of the mediæval term knight banneret.

Although the title of “Baronet” (and “Baronetess”) are uniquely British, the idea of a hereditary knighthood is not. Continental Europe had several examples, as are the three FitzGerald hereditary knighthoods in Ireland, and I believe that Malta has one form or another of hereditary knighthood.

I just recently became aware of the supposed connection between the “knight banneret” (who ranked above a “knight bachelor” but below a Lord) and James’s Baronets – the first one being the Baronet Bacon of Redgrave, in 1611 (arms below).


Were the 14th-century knight bannerets also hereditary?