great photo of high-rise Army kilt

[Tobus]

I've thought to myself sometimes that it would be good to get either a surplus/used military kilt or to have one made in that style. The high rise and 18-22oz wool would make it a warmer choice in the winter.

So then why haven't you?!

As you may recall, I bought a military surplus kilt a while back because I wanted to try out the high-rise style with military box pleats. It's surprisingly comfortable and easy to contend with (I was worried about the pleating style being difficult to manage, but this one has the elastic pleat-keepers stitched inside, so it makes for a no-muss no-fuss kilt wearing experience).

My wife hates the look of the high-rise, as well as the green binding, but it actually does make a fellow look a tad slimmer. The downside is that it can make your torso look really short and out of proportion, and for a guy like me who has a proportionally short torso already, it makes it even worse. I've only worn mine a couple of times (for very informal occasions like going to a BBQ at a friend's house). If I were to wear it out and about in public, I'd probably wear a short jacket over it, like my Ike jacket or even a typical Highland kilt jacket.

The double-prong buckles are cool, but they're kind of a pain to get buckled and unbuckled. The prongs are very small and they don't have a lot of rotational play in them, so you have to really bend the strap around behind the bar of the buckle to get the prongs in or out of the holes.

I really ought to take some measurements of the length of the fell to see how it compares to overall length.

[CMcG]

So then why haven't you?!

...

To be honest I've run out of space I'm in a loft apartment with my girlfriend and we don't actually have any closets... our bedroom is now dominated by a pair of clothes racks and chest of drawers, all of which are overflowing. If anything, I'm trying to get rid of some stuff to make everything fit better! I shouldn't complain, though, because having too much clothing is an enviable problem

The other issue is tartan. I guess I could get a used military kilt in Black Watch because it is universal, but I don't feel much of a connection to it. That leaves getting one made, which is an expensive proposition...

Thanks for the description of your experience with yours. Is it extra heavyweight wool? How does it compare to your other kilts in terms of keeping you warm?

[Tobus]

The other issue is tartan. I guess I could get a used military kilt in Black Watch because it is universal, but I don't feel much of a connection to it. That leaves getting one made, which is an expensive proposition...

Aren't all the regimental tartans considered universal like Black Watch?

Thanks for the description of your experience with yours. Is it extra heavyweight wool? How does it compare to your other kilts in terms of keeping you warm?

Uh, I'm a Texan. We don't think in terms of keeping warm! Rather the opposite - we think in terms of keeping cool. This kilt is indeed a heavyweight wool, although I wouldn't be able to tell whether it's 18 or 22 oz. I'd guess 18, though.

But as I've stated elsewhere, it's really the yardage in the kilt that makes the difference in heat retention, not the weight of the wool. This kilt has a lot of material in it. So it's pretty warm. And since it goes higher up, it does tend to retain more heat in one's core area. But I daresay that if you were wearing it in winter, your core area is going to be covered by a sweather, jacket, or other garments anyway. So the additional insulation it provides up there probably isn't going to make a huge difference.

[CMcG]

Aren't all the regimental tartans considered universal like Black Watch?

We'd have to consult an expert, but I thought some regiments use actual clan tartans? I know Black Watch is the same sett as Campbell, but in darker shades, which distances it a bit from the clan tartan... either way, I don't feel as much connection to a universal tartan, compared to either my clan tartan or a district tartan that I'm associated with.

...
Uh, I'm a Texan. We don't think in terms of keeping warm! Rather the opposite - we think in terms of keeping cool. This kilt is indeed a heavyweight wool, although I wouldn't be able to tell whether it's 18 or 22 oz. I'd guess 18, though.

But as I've stated elsewhere, it's really the yardage in the kilt that makes the difference in heat retention, not the weight of the wool. This kilt has a lot of material in it. So it's pretty warm. And since it goes higher up, it does tend to retain more heat in one's core area. But I daresay that if you were wearing it in winter, your core area is going to be covered by a sweather, jacket, or other garments anyway. So the additional insulation it provides up there probably isn't going to make a huge difference.

Ah, I see I should have translated my question into "Texan" and asked if your military kilt keeps you less cool than your other kilts

When it comes to winter clothing, layering is key so I suspect a 4" rise would make a 2" warmth difference over standard rise. It also makes sense that more yardage = more wool, which should also help. I find it hard to believe, however, that weight doesn't matter. It seems logical that 22oz wool would make a difference in heat retention over 11oz... but maybe the difference between 16oz and 18oz, wouldn't be too noticeable.

I also recall someone doing a scientific measurement on Xmarks that found box pleats were better than knife pleats in the winter because they swing and swish less vigorously, which keeps more warm air trapped under the kilt. I can't seem to find it just now... was it maybe Kilted Hiker who wrote that up?

[Tobus]

We'd have to consult an expert, but I thought some regiments use actual clan tartans? I know Black Watch is the same sett as Campbell, but in darker shades, which distances it a bit from the clan tartan... either way, I don't feel as much connection to a universal tartan, compared to either my clan tartan or a district tartan that I'm associated with.

Yep, I think most regimental tartans are based on clan tartans from the original heads of the regiments, but they are still considered universal due to their military use. And especially with the discernible difference in build for military kilts, it seems that people instantly recognise a military kilt as being what it is, rather than a typical clan-tartan kilt. But I can understand not wanting to wear a tartan that's not significant to you. On the flip side, though, it would be a rare thing indeed to see a military-style kilt in a civilian clan (i.e. non-military associated) tartan. Might be kinda neat, though! It would depend on the tartan.

Ah, I see I should have translated my question into "Texan" and asked if your military kilt keeps you less cool than your other kilts

When it comes to winter clothing, layering is key so I suspect a 4" rise would make a 2" warmth difference over standard rise. It also makes sense that more yardage = more wool, which should also help. I find it hard to believe, however, that weight doesn't matter. It seems logical that 22oz wool would make a difference in heat retention over 11oz... but maybe the difference between 16oz and 18oz, wouldn't be too noticeable.

I also recall someone doing a scientific measurement on Xmarks that found box pleats were better than knife pleats in the winter because they swing and swish less vigorously, which keeps more warm air trapped under the kilt. I can't seem to find it just now... was it maybe Kilted Hiker who wrote that up?

I actually seem to recall the opposite from that thread - although I admit my memory often plays tricks on me. I remember it as being explained that box pleats tend to get a bellows effect going as you walk, which moves more air and increases the transfer of heat, where knife pleats just swing back and forth.

I'm sure fabric weight plays a small part, especially when making big comparisons like 11 oz to 22 oz. But in the smaller increments, like 16 oz to 18 oz, it's hardly noticeable.

[CMcG]

I actually seem to recall the opposite from that thread - although I admit my memory often plays tricks on me. I remember it as being explained that box pleats tend to get a bellows effect going as you walk, which moves more air and increases the transfer of heat, where knife pleats just swing back and forth.

I found Tartan Hiker's thread:
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...at-loss-44833/

His conclusions about heat retention appears to have more to do with yardage than pleat style. Higher yardage equals more swinging swish while walking, which bellows out the warm air from under the kilt. While standing, however, the extra material of a higher yardage kilt appears to retain more warmth.

[Nathan]

Yep, I think most regimental tartans are based on clan tartans from the original heads of the regiments, but they are still considered universal due to their military use. And especially with the discernible difference in build for military kilts, it seems that people instantly recognise a military kilt as being what it is, rather than a typical clan-tartan kilt. But I can understand not wanting to wear a tartan that's not significant to you. On the flip side, though, it would be a rare thing indeed to see a military-style kilt in a civilian clan (i.e. non-military associated) tartan. Might be kinda neat, though! It would depend on the tartan.

I know this is a really old post, but I wanted to weigh in. Black Watch and Royal Stuart have a long tradition of being considered Universal tartans because they are government setts etc...

Other regimental tartans aren't so universal. Clearly they aren't restricted by mills, but they are by etiquette.

For example, The Nova Scotia Highlanders wear Clan Donald Modern, the Seaforth Highlanders wear MacKenzie, the Stormont Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders wear MacDonell of Glengarry, none of these are universal tartans, but a member of the regiment is considered akin to a loyal member of the clan by way of tradition.

By contrast, there are some tartans that are only used by regiments, and members of that regiment get prickly when they see civilians in their regimental colours. The O'Saffron tartan is a good example of this. It is associated with the Irish Regiment of Canada and if you have one, it's obvious Army surplus.

There is also the further taboo of mixing military and civilian kit so even as a MacDonald, I've been given a hard time for wearing the Nova Scotia Highlanders military box pleat set kilt by former members of the regiment. I remind them that I have a history with the regiment and am indeed a MacDonald and they usually settle down but tsk me for wearing military kit with civvies.

Just my thoughts...

[OC Richard]

I think most regimental tartans are based on clan tartans from the original heads of the regiments

If we're talking the original Scottish Highland regiments raised in the 18th century, it's a mixed bag.

First of course is the tartan of The Black Watch, the origin of which seems to be impossible to ascertain. Ditto Cameron of Erracht, though it's obviously a MacDonald tartan with yellow line added.

Seaforth MacKenzie and Gordon appear to be simply Black Watch with added lines.

Anyhow I'm not sure that there's clear evidence that any of these were a pre-existing tartan worn by the family of the regiment's founder.

it would be a rare thing indeed to see a military-style kilt in a civilian clan (i.e. non-military associated) tartan

For sure true if we're talking a true MOD Other Rank's kilt, because I've only seen that style of tartan available in the tartans the Army uses. It's the very heavy wool, huge sett size, and moreover the surface of the wool has a different feel to it, a softer/fuzzier feel, a bit more like a travel rug.

Though other attributes of military kilts are seen sometimes with civilian kilts, such as being pleated to the line, lacking belt loops, or plain binding.

So true that I don't think I've ever seen a civilian kilt that had ALL the attributes of an army kilt (pleated to the line, high rise, green binding, black two-prong buckles, no fringe).

[MacCathmhaoil]

But as I've stated elsewhere, it's really the yardage in the kilt that makes the difference in heat retention, not the weight of the wool.

I would argue this, if I wear my 22 oz. military 8 yard kilt it is noticeably warmer than my 8 yard 13 oz and even any of my 16 oz. All are 8 yards the only variable is fabric weight. I would invite you to test out your theory on one of our " less than hospitable" February nights when the thermometer drops to -40. You may at that point wish to re-jig that belief!