What would you do?

[kiltedrennie]

I trust your judgement Steve.

[ratspike]

As an advertiser I probably shouldn't weigh in, but I think it's okay for the professional photographer part of me to throw out his $0.02 USD.

No business should ever be using photos that they don't own or have permission to use to advertise or promote their product or services. The photos should also accurately represent that product or service. Fred's Kilt Barn makes kilts but they're really not very good, so Fred "borrows" photos from Rob Roy's House of Awesome Kilts. Fred's excuse is that since the photos are of kilts, and he makes kilts, it's okay because they're the same thing. This happens in the photography world a lot and it's totally sleazy. Advertising on a web forum is a privilege, and if you're sleazy and misrepresent your products then you should lose that privilege.

I wouldn't buy from a business I knew used stolen photos to represent their products because I know I can't trust them. If those aren't their photos, how do I know what I'll actually be receiving? How do I know I'll receive anything at all? They've shown that they don't have a problem with stealing so how can I trust them to deal honestly with me as a customer?

[piperdbh]

My answers to your last 4 questions: yes, no, no, yes.

[Downunder Kilt]

On the issue of patents, could the Utilikilt one be explained? Is it just the way the pleats run, towards the back from each side to meet in the middle of the back without the external kingussie style pleat. (If this sidetracks the thread please remove)

[ASinclair]

Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard? YES

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks? NO

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder? NO

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard? Ethics overrides price

And Steve, thank you, sir, for providing this wonderful Home for the Kilted Rabble.

[Steve Ashton]

Anyone can do a search of the US Patent office database. Steven Villegas was given patent no. 6,282,723 on 9 Nov 2000.

Or click here.

[Hawk]

Steve, simply I will try to answer your questions in the order you've posted them. Note here that I have little experience when compared to some at this Forum when it concerns "Kilts" proper, and I will taylor my answers accordingly, specific to the "kilt" industry.


If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company? No I would not feel overly confident, as Ratspike (Bob) said, if they have basically stolen, with the intent to use a photo in misrepresentation of their own product. How am I to trust what type of product they actually have - that's another reason this forum is here, it has and represents a higher integrity, and that is also reflected in those persons/businesses that advertise here and interact with our forum members.


Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here? Not necessarily, that's why I believe Steve, and others involved, look at those that want to advertise and make a determination as to their outward integrity.


How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK. We have all seen the Utilikilt knock-offs that are sold all over the world. The Utilikilt Company holds a US Patent on their design. Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent? Not enough "legal" knowledge in this area to make an educated opinion. But, it does feel wrong and a bit sleezy.


Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here? See above question, and I believe we have a system in place that appears to work to weed-out such companies/individuals from doing so.


Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard? Of course! We have some of the best people that offer their skills, products and expertise here on XMTS to our forum members. We should all hold ourselves to the highest standard as we can at any moment.


Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks? Hummmm...this also appears to be getting into a "legal" area which those of us not currently in the "legal" profession might not have a "proper" opinion. I would follow up with just a short answer - I believe we already have a system in place to weed these type of businesses out, before they join the forum. If there is unethical intent then certainly not.


Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder? Price doesn't matter at this point, if it's unethical then we all have to live with our own decisions. In my case, I believe I would not.


To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum, to an ethical, over legal, standard?
Quality and higher ethical standards are important. A reasonable and fair value is next.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is my 1.5 cents......Simply. As if it matters in the wide scheme of things, as I have a tiny voice.

Hawk

[TheOfficialBren]

In my opinion this is one of the very best corners of the Internet (not only for indulging in a specific area of interest --and it is a very specialised area of interest -- but for camaraderie and community).

With that said anything that diminishes a part diminishes the whole.

Ethics must prevail in an era where they are in shorter and shorter supply.

I only buy from vendors who are ethical and have a proven track record in line with my own stances on business practices.

Keep business accountable under the bright light of integrity and the thieves and liars will scurry for the door faster than you can throw heavy objects in their direction.

The good nature, excellent conversation, and genuinely well - intended advice offered here are prime reasons for joining here.

Keep XMARKSTHESCOT.COM honest. Hold offending merchants accountable.

Thank you, Steve, for keeping this place going. Rant over. Lol.

[seanachie]

I have answered the questions below, I will mention one merchant here where these issues hit home for me. I use many merchants who advertise here, but because he operates in sort of a niche area I will specifically mention him: Robert Pel of RKilts. Though I have never met face to face, Robert has been a great gentleman, always engaging, a great conversationalist and a genuinely good person. He also makes an outstanding product, which is extremely well crafted and he takes a great deal of pride in and customer service is top drawer. While his product is outstanding, his design is pretty unique. At the same time I know people have made knockoffs of ill repute and used his pics elsewhere. I detest that, as this is a man's living. To deny him fair gain from his labors is unjust. I had to save a long time for my purchases from Robert but I am glad for doing so and would never consider an imitator.


If an advertiser here were using photos from someone else, and it could be proven that no permission was granted, would you feel confidant dealing with that company? NO
Would you want a company who uses photos without permission to be able to advertise here? No

How about copyrights and patents? As you may or may not know copyrights and patents are effective only in the countries where they are filed. It may not be against the law to copy a design of another company, with a UK copyright, if you are not operating in the UK.
We have all seen the Utilikilt knock-offs that are sold all over the world. The Utilikilt Company holds a US Patent on their design. Would you feel confidant buying a Utilikilt knock-off from a company operating in a country not covered by that patent?
Would you buy products from such a company and would you want such companies to be able to advertise here? This question is a bit dicier as US patent laws are antiquated and out of step. Witness the examples we see litigated every day, with Internet trolls, "click and buy" Samsung vs Apple, etc etc. I think if a substantive argument could be made in the copyright holders position I could accept that. Can anyone honestly tell me, why UK has a patent and if they accept it what the rationale is? I am open minded, but being in the technology industry where so many crazy patents are filed I would like to understand this better.


So, my final questions are to you, the members of X Marks.
Would the membership here hold those who advertise here to a higher ethical standard? Absolutely

Would you want a company who makes or resells in one country, products that are under copyright or patent in another country, to be able to advertise on X Marks? No blanket rule, case by case basis see my rationale above.

Would you buy those products if the price were lower than from the copyright holder? Not on the basis of price, but the merits

To you, the members of X Marks, is price the overriding factor or do you hold yourselves, and by default this forum No, there are really great merchants on here who make great products and are also wonderful people so no to price as overriding factor.

[IGA]

I'm very new to the XMTS community. It has made a very strong impression upon me because of the way it joins passionate kilt wearers and some of the most respected kilt makers into a discussion. It seems common for folks to gush with as much pride over who made the new kilt they're posting about as it does to be wearing an awesome new kilt.

As a relative outsider, my suggestion is to not cheapen that by allowing anyone to advertise that has cash. If I had come to this site for the first time and it just looked like a place for discount vendors to sell cheap junk I wouldn't have come back a second time (or third or fourth!). Keep all of the nonsense at bay.