Irish heraldry question - Sept Arms

[MacCathmhaoil]

We have a number of examples within the family of different branches having the same arms. Many of these are documented in 19th century dictionary's of arms and although it isn't mentioned I'd expect there would be differences in the actual display of arms with supporters, coronets, etc..

[Joseph McMillan]

We have a number of examples within the family of different branches having the same arms. Many of these are documented in 19th century dictionary's of arms and although it isn't mentioned I'd expect there would be differences in the actual display of arms with supporters, coronets, etc..

This is quite reasonable. Indeed, there's no particular reason to expect differences, with supporters, coronets, etc, unless some of the people using the arms were peers, etc. People descended in the male line from a person who used a particular coat of arms have the right to use those same arms, so there are all kinds of remote cousins who could conceivably use the same arms. But not everyone with the same surname descends from the same ancestor, and those who don't cannot bear the same arms. If the same arms were confirmed in the past to different people, then the heralds probably believed--or were prepared to assume--that they were somehow connected to each other further up the genealogical chain.

[Gael Ridire]

As I've researched the use of arms to put together a roll of the O'Briens I have found many whose shields are the same but the difference is with the crest. To me this is very confusing, for instance, as example would be during the Williamite war where two O'Briens were on different sides, their banner (if they used one) would have been the same of "Gules three lions passant guardant per pale Or and Argent." As to many branches to a clan I'd have to say yes this is a big problem. The O'Brien Clan is actively working on the DNA of O'Briens using Sir Conor O'Brien's DNA as a baseline since he is a direct descendant of Brian Boru. There are just over 325 males who have participated and it is very interesting. There are few O'Briens who have close DNA markers to that of The O'Brien. I believe there are just eleven who are distant cousins with five or less marker difference using 67 markers. There are many also who's surnames are Butler, Burke, Fitzgerald, O'Mahoney, Wissett, Brooks, Wright, etc.. In fact there is one whose surname is Brietheim who is only one marker off of me. He is adopted. So in truth there are many O'Briens who aren't related at all, just bear the surname, and vice a verse. The basic O'Brien arms aren't really Irish, but just a difference from the English king, they aren't Irish at all, but came into existence in 1543! The alleged banner of Brian Boru is "Azure a sun in splendor a dexter forearm grasping a sword in pale proper," I have yet to find this documented. When petitioning my own arms, the Chief Herald's office stated to me that before the lions the arms used was "On a shield a forearm grasping a sword palewise," (coloring never stated).