Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[davidlpope]

Does rule #6 not prevent that? I will try to think of something cryptic to say publicly. But it would only be my view anyway and not that of other Scots.

Alan

Ah. I hadn't seen that. Perhaps a private email, then? A single view would at least be a start.

[davidlpope]

Gents,

Thanks for the discussion. I'll pick back up a bit later. I'm off to dress up as Martin Luther for our Reformation Day observance.

[neloon]

David,
I will try to say something useful - entirely my own thoughts and, if anything is inappropriate, I assume the Mods will delete the post.
First, a long preamble.
Our Canadian friends have the aphorism "As Canadian as possible ....under the circumstances" i.e. trying to live next a giant. We, in Scotland, also live next a giant. Indeed, after the 1707 Union, we were supposed to be referred to as "North Britain" and even when I was young, that designation was often found on addresses. (One never saw "South Britain"! ) The last verse of the UK National Anthem still asks God "Rebellious Scots to crush". In the last 60 years, Scotland's thoughts about our relationship with the English giant have become increasingly schizophrenic which, of course, may hint at insecurity but not in the way that Reiver wants to suggest. Some of this probably spills over into other national relationships such as with the US.
For example, we are embarassed that one of your Presidential candidates is half Scots (which did not stop him taking the Scottish government to Court - he lost). A few years back, we had President Obama and US senators screaming abuse at Scottish Law over the Pan Am Flight 103 tragedy - "I think all of us here in the United States were surprised, disappointed and angry about the release". Obama came over especially to tell us how to vote in the Scottish Referendum to satisfy "America's best interests". (He similarly interfered in the UK EU referendum!) This makes us feel a bit "put upon" by the US - I'm trying to be tactful - and that may make us insecure in an environment such as this site which usurps(?) our name yet where we are so outnumbered. Why should we accept any connection with a country that is the laughing stock of the rest of the world?
To give you just one example - we find it difficult to accept that people in the US who are big on An crann tara, who can't spell the Gaelic word for children and who have purloined Burns' poetry in a foundation statement should incorporate such "Scottishness" into their philosophy. Of course, that doesn't apply to members of XMarks, we know that but.... So please drop the Scottish ancestry thing - we don't see the point and it must bring some suspicion on yourselves. Especially if you come from certain parts of the US.
However, in Scotland's "best interests" some of us will continue to help XMarkers where we can. Hope you enjoyed "being" Luther!
Good night.

Alan

[Reiver]

Alan,
The only 'insecurity' I was alluding to was the guest of Jock that was afraid to wear a kilt as to look a tourist. That is all.
Your macro geo political issues are your own.

So, in short, 'we' should get over the ancestry thing....especially if 'from certain area's of the US' (the south reference the Fiery Cross I'm guessing?).....however, you will still assist us as it is in Scotland's interest.

In layman's terms this seems to equate to: I think this a silly business altogether but am happy to give advice on how to spend your funds on Scottish wares related to this silly business.
Excuse me for extrapolating but can hardly see another interpretation.

This has been enlightening to say the least.

[S.S.Muldoon]

We just don't seem to be bothered about ancestors.

People's feelings regarding clan tartan and clan badges might suggest otherwise.

[davidlpope]

David,
I will try to say something useful - entirely my own thoughts and, if anything is inappropriate, I assume the Mods will delete the post.
First, a long preamble.
Our Canadian friends have the aphorism "As Canadian as possible ....under the circumstances" i.e. trying to live next a giant. We, in Scotland, also live next a giant. Indeed, after the 1707 Union, we were supposed to be referred to as "North Britain" and even when I was young, that designation was often found on addresses. (One never saw "South Britain"! ) The last verse of the UK National Anthem still asks God "Rebellious Scots to crush". In the last 60 years, Scotland's thoughts about our relationship with the English giant have become increasingly schizophrenic which, of course, may hint at insecurity but not in the way that Reiver wants to suggest. Some of this probably spills over into other national relationships such as with the US.
For example, we are embarassed that one of your Presidential candidates is half Scots (which did not stop him taking the Scottish government to Court - he lost). A few years back, we had President Obama and US senators screaming abuse at Scottish Law over the Pan Am Flight 103 tragedy - "I think all of us here in the United States were surprised, disappointed and angry about the release". Obama came over especially to tell us how to vote in the Scottish Referendum to satisfy "America's best interests". (He similarly interfered in the UK EU referendum!) This makes us feel a bit "put upon" by the US - I'm trying to be tactful - and that may make us insecure in an environment such as this site which usurps(?) our name yet where we are so outnumbered. Why should we accept any connection with a country that is the laughing stock of the rest of the world?
To give you just one example - we find it difficult to accept that people in the US who are big on An crann tara, who can't spell the Gaelic word for children and who have purloined Burns' poetry in a foundation statement should incorporate such "Scottishness" into their philosophy. Of course, that doesn't apply to members of XMarks, we know that but.... So please drop the Scottish ancestry thing - we don't see the point and it must bring some suspicion on yourselves. Especially if you come from certain parts of the US.
However, in Scotland's "best interests" some of us will continue to help XMarkers where we can. Hope you enjoyed "being" Luther!
Good night.

Alan

Alan,

Thanks for fleshing this out. This has been very helpful. I had no idea that this discussion pushed the political buttons that you've described. From my experience, this simply isn't a political issue in the US. Most of the folks I know who are involved in Scottish Diaspora events steer well clear of any current political issues in Scotland. That's your business. Our interest in Scotland tends to be narrowly limited to Scotland's history.

The other thing that would come as a surprise is that despite the connections that you've drawn, there's no perception of a connection here between Scottish Diaspora events and the KKK. No one that I've ever encountered has tarred me with a racist brush on the basis of my involvement in highland games, pipe bands, etc. Perhaps the connections are overstated in Scotland. I think most Americans would more likely make a connection between the KKK and Germany, based on the Nazi party.

I'm sorry that the US, and individual US citizens, comes off as rude to Scotland. When I was in Marine officer training we were required to read The Ugly American. It probably should be required reading for all Americans.

Thanks for helping me understand more than I did before.

David

[ThistleDown]

You are a gentleman, David, in the finest and truest of definitions.

[ASinclair]

Edited to remove possible tripping hazard.

[ThistleDown]

We are rapidly entering a TRIPPING HAZARD zone.

If you value the information being exchanged in this thread stay well away from this line.


__________________________________________________ _________________________

[Jock Scot]

Well Alan is a far deeper thinker than I can ever bother to be! Whilst I am well aware of the issues that he mentions I had not really consciously made those connections to connect those important issues with what we are talking about in this thread and I have to say, I was heading more along the lines of the thinking in David's excellent reply.

Gentlemen, this is not a "hate America" thread, if it was, then I would have nothing more to do with it. However this thread is about explaining the differing viewpoints of certain aspects of genealogical interpretations from one side of the Atlantic to the other and the perennial problem of the use of the English language. Straight talking most certainly and it needs to be if we are to gain from the discussion, but nothing more.

I for one think this is possibly one of the most important threads that has ever been posted on this website and if it increases international understanding then that can only be to the good of us all. If it founders, then we are all going to be the poorer.