Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[ThistleDown]

Exceptions in every culture, jfraser. Slightly nasty in its meaning, Anglo means a Scot living in England by choice, but wanting to vote in Scotland. At least that's my definition off the top of my head. Maybe it means the opposite. In any case, we can all find these singular exceptions (like a Floridian in California being called a Floridian-Californian) if we search hard enough. Take it from me, it's just not done, old boy

[Nathan]

I've heard a lot of people from the UK refer to Brits of South Asian descent as "Asian". Clearly, they're no longer Asian if they live in the UK but everyone seems to understand the essence of what's being said. The geographic reference is being used as an ethnic reference. When I was there, an English mate if mine who's parents were Indo Guyanese was also called Asian. My point isn't so much the word as the context in which it is being used.

[ThistleDown]

I've heard a lot of people from the UK refer to Brits of South Asian descent as "Asian". Clearly, they're no longer Asian if they live in the UK but everyone seems to understand the essence of what's being said. The geographic reference is being used as an ethnic reference. When I was there, an English mate if mine who's parents were Indo Guyanese was also called Asian. My point isn't so much the word as the context in which it is being used.

I have heard that in reference to immigrants from the sub-continent, but never combined to form Asian-Scottish.

[Nathan]

I have heard that in reference to immigrants from the sub-continent, but never combined to form Asian-Scottish.

I've heard it in relation to the children of Immigrants from the subcontinent. I think that's the same as a North American descendant of Scottish immigrants being called "Scottish".

[ThistleDown]

This thread started with a good question honestly asked. It was long-ago answered as best as thinking members of this little forum could. Not much point in starting all of that over again so I'll just leave you with the last word here, Nathan.

[Jock Scot]

-------- I think that's the same as a North American descendant of Scottish immigrants being called "Scottish".

They are not by many in Scotland.

[Nathan]

Not by many in Scotland they are not.

Try to follow the point, Jock. I have heard people in Scotland refer to descendants from the subcontinent as Asian even though they don't live in Asia and were born in Scotland. Similarly, people in Canada refer to different ethnic groups (Scots descendants included) by their land of origin. I am demonstrating, by way of analogy, that your country also uses this kind of geographic shorthand to describe various communities.

I think people on this forum have explained ad nauseum why this is a natural shorthand that is used to describe different communities in our Country.

I certainly can't stop you from being obstinate on the matter. There is, in English usage, a geographic, civic, cultural as well as ethnic meaning for any country's people and products.

To illustrate this obvious point further, consider this:

Is this guy Scottish?

Calum MacKenzie, born and raised Perth, Ontario, Canada - resides Perth, Ontario, Canada:

Civic definition: No
Geographic definition: No
Ethnic/genealogical definition: Yes
Cultural definition: Yes and No

Kumar Patel, born and raised in Perthshire, Scotland, UK - resides in London, England, UK

Civic definition: Yes
Geographic definition: Yes
Ethnic/genealogical definition: No
Cultural definition: Yes and No

Hugh Sinclair, born and raised Glasgow, Scotland, UK - resides in Glasgow

Civic definition: Yes
Geographic definition: Yes
Ethnic/genealogical definition: Yes
Cultural definition: Yes


If your rebuttal is simply that people in Scotland don't agree, that analysis is equivalent to a schoolyard children saying "no way" - "Yes way".

This thread asked the question of why some diaspora Scots choose to take an interest in and identify with their Scottish heritage.

The answer is because it is indeed their heritage and it provides them with a cultural context in a diverse land. It explains the way they speak, dress, worship, where their people chose to settle and why they have the name they do.

Nobody can stop a native Scot from saying to his diaspora cousin, "You're not actually Scottish by any definition" but that doesn't make the curmudgeon who says it correct nor will it stop the diaspora Scot from continuing to be what he is.

[jfraser]

Exceptions in every culture, jfraser. Slightly nasty in its meaning, Anglo means a Scot living in England by choice, but wanting to vote in Scotland. At least that's my definition off the top of my head. Maybe it means the opposite. In any case, we can all find these singular exceptions (like a Floridian in California being called a Floridian-Californian) if we search hard enough. Take it from me, it's just not done, old boy

Thank you for your reply ThistleDown, it is much appreciated. However, I am well aware what actually goes on in Scotland and what is done and not done.

[Reiver]

This last weekend I attended a Celtic/Highland games event in Tucson as the Scott Convener so sat my tent and welcomed folks of the name. I must admit I do enjoy giving tidbits of info that seem to pique the interest of those so inclined to look into their family etc. Some knowledgeable...some not.

MacBain of MacBain (the Scots/ Lord lyon accredited Clan Chieftain) attended and was the official Clan Chieftain of the day. He visited each Clan convener for a visit with his wife and the Tanist. Richard, the Tanist, and I had a good conversation about this diaspora business and Scottishness in general.

I mentioned both sides of the argument here...he did say he found the Council of Chieftains to be a bit of an 'old boys club' that he was not exactly comfortable with but found the Scots issues with the diaspora to be a bit childish in nature. He just shook his head and said....there are important issues in Scotland and this is not one of them.

He said he found this to be more of an issue (the outwiths and Scottishness) with the elderly and not so important to the younger Scots (he is in his late 40's I'm guessing) so wait awhile and they'll die off (jokingly said).

Again, anecdotal, and one mans view.

[tripleblessed]

I am a person who wants to hear the opinions of others, and I both respect and value them. That does not translate
to feeling bound by them. I hear, respect, and value the views above in this now long thread, and for the most part can understand the hows and whys of their formation, and against better judgment, join in. Those within the borders of
Scotland have frequently (often with clear justification) bemoaned the ignorance of Scottish history exhibited by those
"outwith" those borders. This overlooks the reality that what is known is not always what is taught by a government
funded education system. A person educated in the northern US will almost never have a comprehensive understanding
of the experience of those in the south between 1855 and 1875. Japanese children have a very different understanding
of the events in China between 1935 and 1945 than do Chinese. Those who live in Scotland today often have a less
than complete understanding of how the diaspora came to be the diaspora. Somewhere between many and most of our
folk who came to the colonies came not of their own choice or will, but because they were sold, shipped, or forced off
land they had defended for centuries. They came in to find a wilderness, and mostly desperate circumstances, and they flourished. On the back of hard labor and ingenuity. I have read through letters written to family back in Scotland which said, if you are forced to come here, fear not. Life is hard here, it was there. At least here there is food and here we can
actually own land that is ours, not to be taken away by the Crown.

Some above have apologized for speaking plainly; no need. The facts need no apology, and our opinions are our own, needing no justification or apology. For myself, if I am in need of further education or have a misapprehension of the
facts (yes, astoundingly enough, that has happened on understandably rare occasions ), I enjoy the opportunity
to learn something. May or may not change my opinion, but more knowledge is a good thing. I am not attempting to
persuade anyone to agree, or to challenge one's right to a thought process.

The facts are that Scots did not invent tartan, or the wearing of it. They did not invent pleated garments. While the kilt
we wear today did evolve in Scotland, it was not confiscated when folk left. Those in the military, often not by choice,
were often demobilized on foreign soil by a Crown unconcerned with the welfare or survival of those who had served
their purpose and were no longer needed or wanted on the soil of the British Isles. Or, simply, cost too much to ship home. These men had often served in kilts, which were not confiscated. If we, their descendants, feel an affection for the garment and for the land that was home, it may just be how we were raised. Or that we hear their voices in our blood and in our hearts. I know I do; I don't pretend to speak for others. I know I received welcome in Scotland, and that it felt familiar. I'm not sure I could ask for more. The diaspora was created by the Crown, the government, the peers, and the chiefs. Their policies, the success and failures thereof, have led to our being here today and feeling the way we do. I genuinely believe it is not our intent to offend. Or pretend.