How far back is too far?

**Karl R** · 12th February 19, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by AbuMaia

So how far back is too far? Should I stick with Douglas, being the nearest, even though they're the branch I have the least information about?

I'm dealing with a similar situation. My great great grandfather emigrated from Scotland to Canada. His name was William Brown. There is a Clan Brown ... but the Browns are also septs of Clan MacMillan, Clan Lamont, Clan Douglas, Clan MacDonald, and Clan Boyd (and maybe other clans). Finding a William Brown in Scotland is easy. Finding the correct William Brown in Scotland based on records from the mid 1800s ... well ... most haystacks are smaller than that.

On the other side of the family are the Renwicks. Renwick is a place name, after the village of Renwick in Cumberland. That village has about 20 buildings in it. The Renwicks aren't a clan, but the Renwicks have a family tartan that dates back to at least the 1800s. I'm probably not descended from the people who had the family tartan, but it's almost guaranteed that we share a common ancestor (somewhere) in the borderlands.

I also have Scots-Irish ancestors. I can trace them back to Ireland, but their surnames are clearly Scottish. For example, William Brown married my great great grandmother Isabella Miller from Tyrone County, Ireland. We have no idea when the Millers emigrated from Scotland to Ireland, but there's some indication that she identified as both Scottish and Irish.

Choosing a kilt:
Personally, I tend to place more weight on what I can prove, rather than the closeness of the relationship. My grandfather Arthur Brown (William Brown's grandson) immigrated to the U.S. from Canada. I'm 100% certain of that. Therefore, I'm strongly considering the Maple Leaf tartan (a Canadian district tartan) for my "high quality" kilt tartan. My grandmother (on the other side) was born a Renwick, so I'm strongly considering that tartan. I'm also considering the Tyrone County tartan and the Brown modern tartan.

There are some tenuous links to other clans or districts (Thompson, MacMillan, Douglas, Boyd, MacFarlane, Glasgow, Galloway, Argyll, Lamont, Wicklow), some of which are rather close ties ... if they're correct.

But what if one of the family genealogists discovers some information that proves that those clans or districts definitely aren't correct? Do I really want to invest several hundred dollars into a kilt, then discover a few years from now that it's definitely the wrong kilt?

And let's not overlook the importance of aesthetics. When choosing my high quality kilt, I'll pick a tartan that I like the look of.

Applying for clan membership:
Seriously, I'm not in a rush. Just based on my initial research, both Clan Brown and Clan MacMillan would likely accept me as member based on my great great grandfather William Brown (and a few of the other clans might as well). But if I'm going to affiliate myself with one of those clans, I'd rather not be arbitrary about it. I would rather meet members of the clan, and then let that guide my decision.

Or to put it another way, I'm not going to petition to join a "family" unless I've decided that I really like the people.

**Wareyin** · 13th February 19, 05:19 AM

Are you joining a clan, or a clan society? In my experience, a society will be happy to have you based on claimed ancestry alone. I never had to show genealogy or paperwork of any kind. I don't know how one would join a clan, as until last year my clan had been armigerous, with no chief and to the best of my knowledge no way to apply or join. It's probably different across the pond, but as you are in the USA like me, your experience should be close.

**Father Bill** · 13th February 19, 05:59 AM

I've addressed this a couple of times before: You cannot "join" a clan. Either you're a member by birth or you're not. You can join a clan association. It's a club for people who are a member of a clan (by birth) or in some cases, who support that clan or who are interested in that clan.

Your clan does not charge dues, keep a membership list, or have application forms any more than your family does. It's a group of people who, one way or another are related to the clan and were so related the day they were born.

Your clan association is usually the opposite of all of those. It will probably charge dues, keep a membership list and have an application form. It may or may not be composed of people who were related to the clan from birth.

The clan chief (assuming that there is one) makes the official description of who is related by birth. S/he (yes, there is at least one female clan chief of whom I read recently) may also choose to include others who have different surnames including variant spellings and completely different names for reasons best known to the chief - usually because they come from the clan's lands. Some chiefs are more rigorous in their requirements than others.

Belonging to either or both groups can be fun. You might unfortunately also run into members of the clan or its association who have different views of 'who belongs' or even, in the case of the clan association, 'who should belong' than the official rules or designations describe. Such people are best avoided for your own peace of mind in order to maximize the fun part. They're analogous to the 'kilt kops' who seem to think they know better than anyone else and cannot be convinced by either fact or logic.

Hope all that helps a bit.

Bill+

**CollinMacD** · 13th February 19, 08:12 AM

The tradition of Clan Donald, from what I understand of both family and the Clan members, you normally wear the tartan of your Father's side, not your materal side. I asked this question here several months ago, as my Grandmother on my paternal side (MacDonald), is a Chisholm. I wanted to purchase a Chisholm Kilt to wear to honor my Grandmother side, but was discouraged from doing so.

I also have Macintosh, ( Paternal Grandfather MacDonald's Mother), Kennedy (Paternal Great Grandfather's Mother), other Paternal
wives maiden names, MacDonnell, Huet, MacDonald, MacBride, MacKenna and MacIsaac all married MacDonald from Lochaber and Knoydart, all Clanranald MacDonalds, going back to 1640.

So point that was made to me here and with other Scottish folks was you wear your paternal Clan tartan, not the maternal side tartan.

Cheers.

**Singlemalt** · 13th February 19, 02:56 PM

Whenever I read these kind of threads I am very glad that there is a tartan which matches my surname and I like the colours so my choice is simple. The "rules" around what you should wear and what you should not are as varied as the people who offer them. I wear my kilt because it makes me feel good. I would chose the tartan for which you feel the strongest connection even if the evidence of connection is tenuous. No one is going to ask you for your papers. I see you are considering the Maple Leaf tartan. It is a beautiful one. If you would feel better having the "permission" of a Canadian to wear it....consider it given.

**CollinMacD** · 14th February 19, 07:35 AM

Anybody can buy and wear any tartan they choose, so have fun.

**Hirsty** · 14th February 19, 09:40 AM

Since most people move around a bit you'll tend to find that most Scots can lay claim to a few tartans in their lineage. It is worth looking at regional tartans as well. As mentioned above, many people go for a tartan that they find most aesthetically pleasing.

**Jock Scot** · 14th February 19, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by CollinMacD

Anybody can buy and wear any tartan they choose, so have fun.

Well not quite. It would be more accurate to say, “Anybody can buy and wear NEARLY any tartan they choose.”

There are some restricted, few I grant you, tartans around. The Balmoral tartan is but one example.