I picked up a second-hand P.C. What else do I need to buy to make the outfit work?

[OC Richard]

I got lucky this weekend, and ended up with a Prince Charlie in my size for $56 total.

That's super! A man after my own heart.

BTW I think that's around what I paid for my first Prince Charlie. I was 19 or 20, walking around a Highland Games, and there was a vendor whose promised tables hadn't arrived, so his merchandise was laid out on the dirt. There, filthy on the underside, and with a clear shoe-print on the upper side, was an otherwise fine-looking Prince Charlie, which fit me perfectly. Also in the dirt was a seal-skin and silver-plate Prince Charlie style Evening sporran. I bought both for around $100 as I recall.

the buttons are rather cheap (seem to be chromed plastic or maybe pewter).

The buttons on standard Scottish-made Evening jackets are nearly always the same, chrome plated metal, but which metal I don't know, perhaps brass.

I will likely wear this jacket once per year or less - I've really only had one occasion to wear a tux so far in my life, and don't foresee many more...

For sure California is that way! However back in my University days I wore my Prince Charlie quite a bit: my girlfriend was a concert violinist and we were always attending posh events. And being a piper, in the days before The Coming Of The Black Argyll, I often wore the Prince Charlie for gigs.

I'll need a wing-collar tux shirt...

Do I need a bowtie? ...not a fan of the rouche tie...

I really don't want to buy a fur sporran... If you weren't going to go for a fur or sealskin sporran, what would you go for?

Can I just wear some nice HoC Lewis hose? I think diced hose or Argyll hose are very nice, but I don't think I'll be spending $200 on them anytime soon.

This gets into the question of traditional Highland Dress, what looks proper to someone steeped in it, and whether or not you want to follow those notions.

I always like knowing about the history and milieu of things, and as such I've collected quite a few things about Victorian and 20th century Highland Dress.

The first thing to know about the Prince Charlie (or "coatee" as it was originally and correctly called) is that it's a 20th century invention, quite early in the century. In 1910 it was being called "new" and in the 1930s it was still spoken of as something suitable for fashionable slim young men, and not suited for mature gents.

From the get-go the Prince Charlie was treated like the existing Evening jacket, the Doublet, made in black, blue, and green, and worn with the Evening Dress of the early 20th century:

-bow tie or lace jabot

-low-cut 3-button waistcoat selfcoloured, tartan, red, or buff

-Evening sporran which meant either seal-skin or long white hair, with silver top

-tartan or diced hose

-buckled shoes.

Here, on the left, are two illustrations of the then relatively new Prince Charlie in a 1930s catalogue. Note that the Prince Charlie is a bit more dressed-up that we're used to, by one gent, with lace jabot, tartan waistcoat, and castellated hose.

The other gent is wearing the Prince Charlie as it was usually worn, with black bow tie and ordinary diced or tartan hose.



At the time the Prince Charlie was introduced, and through most of the 20th century, it wouldn't have been considered proper to wear a long tie, or go sans waistcoat, or wear a leather sporran, or plain hose, or ghillies (unless fitted with buckles).

So that's the background, the tradition. Personally I think buckled shoes, tartan or diced hose, and an Evening sporran are called for with Evening Dress.

But how do life-long kilt-wearers in Scotland wear the Prince Charlie nowadays? Let's see. Here's a group of men, I believe all of them Scottish born and raised, all of them kilt-wearers since they were young lads.

Notice that buckled shoes are gone, and half of the men are wearing plain hose. However all are wearing black bow ties and the traditionally called-for Evening sporrans.

(The man wearing buckled shoes is wearing the Doublet, the older form of Evening jacket.)

There's another thing your eye might catch: one man is wearing the higher-cut 5-button waistcoat generally worn with the Argyll jacket. (He has an MBE he can dress how he likes!)



I mentioned the Prince Charlie coatee and Prince Charlie sporran I bought in the dirt as a youngster. Here I am wearing my new finery! That was my perception, as a relatively new kilt-wearer in the late 1970s, of how the Prince Charlie should be worn.



Were I to wear a Prince Charlie now, it would be something like this. (I don't have the proper waistcoat.)

[ktk1961]

I noticed that all six of these men are wearing a version of Ghillie Brogues (even the gent with the buckles) with the long laces tied up the lower leg. Personally, I like what they add to a formal outfit ... although there are many in the "rabble" who would ardently disagree.

[Jock Scot]

............ although there are many in the "rabble" who would ardently disagree.

Indeed they will. Why? Two main reasons, the pipe band and hire company influences and a third, ignorance. The first two reasons have absolutely nothing to do with traditional highland civilian dress(THCD) and the third probably cannot be helped, because if you don't know then, well, you don't know.

[OC Richard]

I noticed that all six of these men are wearing a version of Ghillie Brogues (even the gent with the buckles) with the long laces tied up the lower leg. Personally, I like what they add to a formal outfit...

It's strange, Ghillie Brogues. Where did they come from? How did they evolve? Where do they fit in Highland Dress?

I don't know any of these things, despite all the looking around I've done.

By far the largest collection of Victorian full-colour images of men in Highland Dress is The Highlanders Of Scotland, showing over 50 men in the late 1860s.

A dozen men are wearing Ghillies, and all but one pair are tan rough-out leather. The implication is that the Ghillies were thought of at that time as rustic rural shoes.

There is one pair of black Ghillies, and they have silver buckles.

Victorian photographs show us that black Ghillies both with and without buckles were not uncommon. And then, as now, they're more likely to be worn by pipers than by non-pipers. (By the way Ghillies have always been a purely civilian style and not worn in the military.)

By the 1930s Ghillies had moved indoors and become a standard Evening Dress shoe, shiny black with silver buckles.

Today we associate Ghillies with civilian pipers and pipe bands, but this is a recent development. As late as the 1960s wearing Ghillies in pipe bands was unheard of. Civilian pipe bands wore either military-style Full Dress which included spats, or civilian Evening Dress which included full tartan hose and buckled brogues.

As far as I can tell it was top-level Canadian pipe bands that introduced Ghillies, in the 1970s. They were worn with the heavy hand-knit offwhite Arran hose, which nicely showed off the laces. Within a decade the entire civilian pipe band world had ditched the uncomfortable and expensive Full Dress and Evening Dress and gone to the new pipe band look of black Ghillies, Arran hose, and black Argyll jackets.

Coinciding with the pipe band world embracing Ghillies was the rise of the Kilt Hire Industry, which likewise jumped on the offwhite hose + black Ghillies as a cheaper alternative to full tartan hose and buckled brogues.

I did some research and I discovered that both the UK Kilt Hire industry and the US formal wear industry didn't take off until the 1970s. I believe that Kilt Hire had a tremendous impact on Highland Dress, popularising the now-familiar Prince Charlie + black Ghillies + offwhite hose + black leather sporran look. (Prior to 1970 leather sporrans were strictly Day Dress and were brown.)

So that's the story as far as I know it.

To myself Evening Dress has always called for, and still calls for, an Evening sporran, full tartan or diced hose, and buckled shoes. I've not embraced the 1970s Kilt Hire makeover of Highland Dress as being "traditional Highland Dress" and I don't think I'm alone in that.

That being said, if I were to wear selfcoloured/solid/plain hose with Evening Dress I wouldn't wear white or offwhite. I'd go with a darker colour.

Time for pretty pictures!

Roughout tan Ghillies in the 1860s, by MacLeay



A rare photo of rough tan ghillies, part of Royal fancy dress



Black Ghillies in Victorian times, in Oban



Evening Dress shoe options in a 1936 catalogue



The City Of Dundee Pipe Band in the 1950s showing the typical civilian pipe band use of Evening Dress; note the buckled shoes



A Grade One Canadian pipe band in 1979 showing the nascent ghillies + Arran hose + black Argyll piper thing.



A California pipe band in 1979, note that only one piper is wearing Ghillies

[McMurdo]

OC Richard, this is a photo of my old pipe instructor Ron Rollo who sadly passed away in 2011, this photo was taken in 1971 at the Maxville Highland games the band was well known here named Caber Feidh. Notice the Argyll hose



Another photo showing the Buckle Brogues and how cool this band was


Myself and Ron at the Fergus Games about 10 years or so ago


Here is his obituary
https://www.pipesdrums.com/article/ron-rollo-1937-2011/

[KennethSime]

I did some research and I discovered that both the UK Kilt Hire industry and the US formal wear industry didn't take off until the 1970s. I believe that Kilt Hire had a tremendous impact on Highland Dress, popularising the now-familiar Prince Charlie + black Ghillies + offwhite hose + black leather sporran look. (Prior to 1970 leather sporrans were strictly Day Dress and were brown)...

To myself Evening Dress has always called for, and still calls for, an Evening sporran, full tartan or diced hose, and buckled shoes. I've not embraced the 1970s Kilt Hire makeover of Highland Dress as being "traditional Highland Dress" and I don't think I'm alone in that.

Richard, would you mind indulging me a bit here?

You mentioned the evening sporran a bit in your first response here, and I wonder if I can pick you brain a bit. Is there anything you'd consider an evening sporran which doesn't necessarily contain fur, or a pelt of some kind? I know there are faux-fur options out there, but personally I'd prefer to stay away from even those. If the answer is no, that's ok, and I'm ready to accept that I may just not blend with THCD in this case.

Specifically, I've been looking at a leather dress sporran such as this or that form USA Kilts, and I'm currently bidding on a vintage version of this sporran which I'm hoping might do ok as a dress sporran, and offer a bit of a victorian aesthetic, similar to one Glen posted earlier in the thread (although a bit louder I think).

[KennethSime]

Ok folks, here's the first picture of the kit in progress. Pardon the link - I tried to post here on the forum, but it I couldn't figure out how to resize appropriately.

Featured are the vintage $50 P.C., my new RRS Kilt (which rises quite high), and a vintage 70s-era Horsehair sporran that I picked up for about $50 also.

Can I get some feedback on the sporran? Does it pass for evening wear?

I rather like the look, though I think I should pickup so mane & tail conditioner. I think it's hanging a bit low, causing a bit of a bunching effect on the kilt - wish I'd caught that before changing.

From here, I'll need to pickup a more appropriate shirt and a bowtie, and of course the black oxfords (I have a pair in brown, and will pickup the black ones soon). At that point, I think I'll be passable.

[Father Bill]

Good progress. Yes, the sporran is fine - upper end of evening wear. Get some "Cowboy Magic" from your local tack shop to keep the hair from tangling.

[gsmacleod]

From here, I'll need to pickup a more appropriate shirt and a bowtie, and of course the black oxfords (I have a pair in brown, and will pickup the black ones soon). At that point, I think I'll be passable.

The sporran will definitely work; not everyone is a fan but if it works for you, then you're all set.

If your plan is to wear the RRS kilt for formal occasions, I'd consider getting a pair of diced hose such as these https://www.houseofcheviot.com/highl...blackwatch-p91

Obviously not cheap but a wonderful addition to the rest of your outfit.

It also appears the rise of the kilt is perfect for your PC as it looks like it goes well above the bottom of your waistcoat to prevent any shirt from peeking out.

Shane

[ktk1961]

If your plan is to wear the RRS kilt for formal occasions, I'd consider getting a pair of diced hose such as these

I'm curious what diced hose one would wear with a "reproduction" or "weathered" tartan. All of the diced hose I've seen are in colors that work well with Ancient or Modern tartans.

Any suggestions ...?