Jacobite shirt origins?

[Tobus]

For comparison here's an actual 18th century shirt.

No huge puffy sleeves.

No laces.

No widely-spread pointed collar.

They had a button at the neck.

The neck opening was large enough to get your head through, and didn't go halfway down your chest.

What they did have, that modern shirts don't, are inserts of extra fabric in the armpits to give extra freedom of motion.

I'm sure the Hollywood interpretation is a fanciful combination of details from many different centuries and regions. Long before I took up wearing the kilt, my wife had made me a shirt from a "Folkwear" pattern called the Missouri River Boatman's Shirt. It is supposedly based on paintings from the latter half of the 1800s, including the Civil War. It is made mostly as you describe, especially with the triangular underarm gussets (which I find to be awkward as hell in practical use). But rather than a buttoned collar, it has simple fabric ties to close the collar at the throat. Perhaps the Hollywood interpretation with laces took some partial inspiration from this style but with further adaptations for the full laces? Who knows...

[Panache]

Richard,

I'm sure you don't need to look much further than Hollywood.

These pirate shirts give the costume dept. a chance to show off a "manly" chest and create a v shape that matches the idealized v shape of the leading man's torso (think Kirk Douglas' physique as a young actor). They are flattering to actors that may not have that idealized v shape and billowy can hide a bit of a paunch if your leading man is getting older. They also flow dramatically in the wind and in motion and allow freedom of motion in a fight sequence.

And....

They are actually pretty comfortable when exerting yourself (air flow).


And... (if we can step off our sartorial / historical high horses for a moment) ...

They look cool! Think of Wesley as the Dread Pirate Roberts in Princess Bride...Wesley looks cool

They aren't historic, lots of people at the Renaissance Faire, Highland games, and Scottish Country Dancers wear them today.

They aren't bad, they are just costume-like.

As long as no one tries to fob them off as historic, I think people should have the opportunity to let loose their inner Hollywood Swashbuckler


"Now out swords and to work withal!"

Cheers

Jamie

[Tobus]

They look cool! (Think the Dread Pirate Robert is Princess Bride...Wesley looks cool )

One of my favourite movies of all time! I can't hear that name without hearing this in my head (in the voice of Andre the Giant, of course):

"I am the Dread Pirate Roberts. There will be no survivors. My men are here, and I am here, but soon you will not be here. ... All your worst nightmares are about to come true."

[MacKenzie]

... my wife had made me a shirt from a "Folkwear" pattern called the Missouri River Boatman's Shirt. It is supposedly based on paintings from the latter half of the 1800s, including the Civil War.

Very much like "Mississippi Boatman by George Caleb Bingham, 1850" from the article I linked above.

[OC Richard]

...supposedly based on paintings from the latter half of the 1800s, including the Civil War...it has simple fabric ties to close the collar at the throat.

It's the "supposedly" part I worry about. I'd like to see the paintings.

In these I don't see laces. https://witness2fashion.wordpress.co...s-1700s-1900s/

About ACW shirts, I've looked at many photos and some surviving garments and as best I remember they're all buttoned.

There's a YouTuber who is an expert on historical clothing who reviews the accuracy of Hollywood costuming and one of her pet peeves is Hollywood making everything tie with laces.

Here she's doing something a bit different, a tongue-in-cheek video of how to transform cheap Halloween costumes into historically accurate ones. She gets into laces at 3:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAoaksK9mZM

[Tobus]

It's the "supposedly" part I worry about. I'd like to see the paintings.

Well, that's why I put the "supposedly" in my statement. Grain of salt and all.

I looked at the paintings they referenced in that pattern, and it does seem to be pretty accurate on all the details except the ties. (Note, I was referencing fabric ties at the top, not the leather laces you're talking about on pirate shirts.) From the paintings I see, the collars were either closed with a button or a tied kerchief, even though the chest area of the shirt remained open/gapped below the collar. Perhaps the sewn-in fabric ties were added to the Folkwear pattern just for convenience, to allow some sort of integral closure.

If nothing else, this stands as an example of how historical styles can be manipulated by modern costumers and passed off to the public as being authentic when they're not.

[OC Richard]

The thing that I guess would seem odd to us is how on most of the 18th century shirts and many of the 19th century shirts there's just one button, at the collar.

It's that gap that was often hidden by a ruffle down either side of the opening in 18th century shirts.

At some point (late 19th century?) the jabot came in which was sort of trying to replicate that appearance, but ignoring both the construction and function of the original.

As I recall some ACW shirts had the small neck opening and single button, but most had a longer opening (around halfway down the chest) with buttons.