Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[Ivor]

So really you are saying that what comes across as a negative attitude towards kilt-hire is essentially a cultural difference given the preponderance of Americans here with their own societal attitude towards the costume hire industry. You do say, however, that there appears a “wide-spread fear” of doing it wrong which may account for the obvious susceptibility to regard one individual as the oracle of all things kilted, who must be obeyed and never contradicted.
I have never thought of Americans as unquestioning followers and, in fact, they always seem to happily concoct their own versions of whatever it is so perhaps this is all part of them developing their own kilt-wearing culture independently of anything Scottish, especially if items such as gillie brogues are difficult to source so, what the hell, we’ll do our American thing and just wear the shoes we can get in the store.

[Troglodyte]

So really you are saying that what comes across as a negative attitude towards kilt-hire is essentially a cultural difference given the preponderance of Americans here with their own societal attitude towards the costume hire industry. You do say, however, that there appears a “wide-spread fear” of doing it wrong which may account for the obvious susceptibility to regard one individual as the oracle of all things kilted, who must be obeyed and never contradicted.
I have never thought of Americans as unquestioning followers and, in fact, they always seem to happily concoct their own versions of whatever it is so perhaps this is all part of them developing their own kilt-wearing culture independently of anything Scottish, especially if items such as gillie brogues are difficult to source so, what the hell, we’ll do our American thing and just wear the shoes we can get in the store.

Kind of...

Back in the late 1970s, J. Charles Thompson brought out So You're Going to Wear the Kilt which was another but timely how-to guide specifically for the American market.

It borrowed very heavily (some might say plagerised) Mackinnon of Dunakin's work from almost 20 years previously, to the extent that certain personal observations are repeated and the illustrations almost identical. But what Thompson makes clear is that he is talking to Americans in America, and adapts his advice accordingly. He draws attention to American practices and their approach to Highland dress, and points out that certain things are not done, or will not be seen at home in Scotland.

Thompson's own personal views on sporrans is regularly misquoted in discussions such as those on this site, and these have created a kind of antithesis (vociferous objection in some cases) to styles that have popular following in Scotland, and none of the stigma. But these have coloured American kilt-wearers' attitudes for the past 40 years or more.

Interestingly enough, he speaks favourably about ghillie-brogues, but admits that what we would call buckle-brogues, he calls 'Mary-Janes' and suggets they are too Alice in Wonderland for Americans - despite saying they are perfectly standard for men in Scotland. And yet he recommends ghillie-brogues for day-wear.

So, even as early as the 1970s, Thompson was aware of this mid-Atlantic divide in what is thought right and proper with Highland dress.

There are certain individuals who have taken it upon themselves in recent years to be the self-appointed arbiters of what is, and what is not, correct or acceptable - particularly where civilian wear is concerned. They are outspoken and take no prisoners on other forums and social media, and they seem to consider their personal views or tastes as the only laws and codes to be followed.

So much is this the case that they will refer to Victorian or Edwardian styles as being before 'traditional' Highland dress came about! What they really mean, but express, I feel, in misleading terms, is that the mid-20th century casual styles that came in after the First World War and were no more than the fashions of the era (as indeed were the Victorian and Edwardian versions previously) are promoted as the ideal.

In the way that Webster's dictionary is 'American Usage' of English, which differs significantly at times from that spoken by the natives in the home country, Thompson's little guide does the same with Highland dress. It might stoke-up opposition, but having Scottish original and 'American Usage' with Highland dress might make things easier for the novice kiltie when it comes to getting kitted-out.

[kilted2000]

I have noticed from various online forums and groups that many Americans are more concerned with matching things, and 'doing things right' than kilt wearers in Scotland.

[Troglodyte]

I have noticed from various online forums and groups that many Americans are more concerned with matching things, and 'doing things right' than kilt wearers in Scotland.

Yes, that certainly seems to be the way, and the question of 'Is it too matchy-matchy..? is often asked when showing an outfit.

Wanting to 'do things right' is, of course, commendable and should be encouraged, but it suggests that there is a big risk of doing things wrong also.

It has always been my impression that here in Scotland there is almost no awareness of doing it either way, right or wrong, but just simply doing it. Established convention and still-practised etiquette are the natural guides if ever in doubt for any kind of social situation, but the idea that wearing the kilt can be done 'wrong' in any informal setting (that is, when uniform or specified dress is required) would baffle most Scots.

[Troglodyte]

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These will be familiar to many on this forum, and this selection of pictures proves nothing - except, perhaps, that the idea of ghillie-brogues being a modern kilt-hire industry invention is unfounded.

If being subjective, it is easy to find period pictures that 'prove' a point, but all they really show is the illustrated individuals' personal preference on the day.

But we can see from these pictures that ghillies are at least as 'original' to Highland dress as the interpretation of 'traditional' as it is now applied to it. They have certainly been worn with the kilt for at least as long as a 'traditional' tweed jacket and waistcoat.

Interestingly, the gillies being worn are shown in both smart formal settings (weddings) and informal casual (Highland games) and so should help the undecided shed their doubts.

[OC Richard]

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These will be familiar to many on this forum, and this selection of pictures proves nothing - except, perhaps, that the idea of ghillie-brogues being a modern kilt-hire industry invention is unfounded.

To amplify your point, here are twelve instances of Ghillies being worn in Victorian times.

In contrast to the recent notion that Ghillies are piper-specific, only one of the subjects appear to be a piper.

Two men appear to have buckles affixed to the toes of their Ghillies. (These of course are entirely non-functional and are for decoration only.)

They're the earliest photos I have of Ghillies being worn, save for the photographic portraits of the Allen Brothers.



Now why do I say that the notion of Ghillies and pipers going hand-in-glove is recent? Because it is.

Here are pipers in 1950, only two are wearing Ghillies.

[figheadair]

To amplify your point, here are twelve instances of Ghillies being worn in Victorian times.

They're the earliest photos I have of Ghillies being worn, save for the photographic portraits of the Allen Brothers.

They all look to be 1870-90. Slightly earlier is the one of Waller Hugh Paton, Artist by David Octavius Hill c.1860.

Waller Hugh Paton, Artist by David Octavius Hill c1860.jpg

[Tobus]

These will be familiar to many on this forum, and this selection of pictures proves nothing - except, perhaps, that the idea of ghillie-brogues being a modern kilt-hire industry invention is unfounded.

Perhaps I missed it, but did anyone make such a claim?

In case that remark was directed my way, I merely pointed out that ghillie brogues have been oversold by hire shops as the only shoe to wear with the kilt, and have become so ubiquitous that ghillie brogues are now (in my mind, anyway) part and parcel of the "hire look". There is no doubt that they have provenance at least as far back as the Highland Revival period, and I do not claim that they aren't a traditional option. But the hire shops have tarnished their image and some people avoid them because they don't want to be thought of as having been dressed by a commercial salesman.

[OC Richard]

I merely pointed out that ghillie brogues have been oversold by hire shops as the only shoe to wear with the kilt, and have become so ubiquitous that ghillie brogues are now (in my mind, anyway) part and parcel of the "hire look".

The other aspect is that since the Hire Shops (at least in their early days, the 1980s) were hiring mostly the black Prince Charlie (or black Argyll) + white hose + black Ghillies (sans buckles) the notion got cemented into the American kiltwearing consciousness that Ghilles are the one and only Formal shoe to wear with the kilt.

I hear all the time people talking about wanting to, or having to, get Ghillies to go with their Evening outfits.

In Victorian times Ghillies, which as I've mentioned perhaps show up in 10% of the photos at best, aren't often seen in formal contexts.

However by the 1920s they'd become a formal shoe option, made in patent leather, and having buckles (de rigueur for Evening Dress) while never seeming to become as popular as the more traditional buckle brogue.

[OC Richard]

I have noticed from various online forums and groups that many Americans are more concerned with matching things...

Yes which is the very antitheses of how Highland Dress can be seen to have been worn, and is still worn, by most Scots.

The things that I have noticed that Americans sometimes do are

-match colours of both the fabrics, and leathers. (Though there's plenty of matching also going on in the Scottish Kilt Hire shops.)

-have their kilts made with low-cut waists, or wear their kilts lower than what is traditional.

-wear numerous accessories.

-blend elements of historical Highland Dress with the existing modern traditional Highland Dress.