18th century scottish regiments

[Troglodyte]

I.am a bit confused. The print seems to have a red stripe and my understanding is the Black watch tartan does not have any red. I claim a clan connection with the Murray's whose tartan was inspired by the Black Watch tartan to which a red stripe was added.

Peter Cochrane's 1987 Scottish Military Dress addresses this, and makes reference to Morier's painting of a Highlander of the 42nd, and notes that the red overstripe shown on the government tartan was introduced by Lord John Murray when he became colonel in 1745 - but probably for the grenadier company only.

Cochrane quotes James Logan, although he was writing a century later, who says of this red overstripe that '...it appeared to me very un-uniform...' but tells us that the same is included in an 1812 aquatint of a 42nd Grenadier by Hamilton Smith, and that the same differentiation from the 42nd was used for Loudon's Highlanders in 1745.

There is a Black Watch Red Hackle version of the regimental tartan, with a red overstripe between the double black lines on the blue, that was introduced in 2009 by House of Edgar as a tribute to those who served in the regiment.

[figheadair]

Peter Cochrane's 1987 Scottish Military Dress addresses this, and makes reference to Morier's painting of a Highlander of the 42nd, and notes that the red overstripe shown on the government tartan was introduced by Lord John Murray when he became colonel in 1745 - but probably for the grenadier company only.

Cochrane quotes James Logan, although he was writing a century later, who says of this red overstripe that '...it appeared to me very un-uniform...' but tells us that the same is included in an 1812 aquatint of a 42nd Grenadier by Hamilton Smith, and that the same differentiation from the 42nd was used for Loudon's Highlanders in 1745.

There is a Black Watch Red Hackle version of the regimental tartan, with a red overstripe between the double black lines on the blue, that was introduced in 2009 by House of Edgar as a tribute to those who served in the regiment.

I can't find the original but here is the aquatint showing Grenadiers of the 42nd or Royal and 92nd or Gordon Highlanders by J C Stadler after Charles Hamilton Smith, 1812.



The tartan appears to be Wilsons of Bannockburn's 42nd Pattern Officers, Sergeants and Privates which was included in their 1819 Key Pattern Book as Coarse Kilt with Red. Here's me weaving it.



The Coarse Kilt with Red tartan appears to have been adopted by the 42nd in the 1780s and seems to have been what Logan, whose reference was based on David Stewart of Garth's history of the 42nd, seems to have been the basis for the 42nd red line claim. I am not aware of any contemporary evidence to support Lord John Murray introducing the red stripe.

[Troglodyte]

I can't find the original but here is the aquatint showing Grenadiers of the 42nd or Royal and 92nd or Gordon Highlanders by J C Stadler after Charles Hamilton Smith, 1812.



The tartan appears to be Wilsons of Bannockburn's 42nd Pattern Officers, Sergeants and Privates which was included in their 1819 Key Pattern Book as Coarse Kilt with Red. Here's me weaving it.



The Coarse Kilt with Red tartan appears to have been adopted by the 42nd in the 1780s and seems to have been what Logan, whose reference was based on David Stewart of Garth's history of the 42nd, seems to have been the basis for the 42nd red line claim. I am not aware of any contemporary evidence to support Lord John Murray introducing the red stripe.

It's great to see proper hands-on weaving in action!

Is what you are weaving a replica of the added-red version that Garth mentions? Your photo makes it appear different from the woven examples of Black Watch Red Hackle to be found online, and the Register's digital image of it. I assume the red overstripes are placed differently.

I had imagined the original BW with the red overstripe running in place of the narrow black line on the green, or between the two central black lines on the blue.

Do you know of an original sample still in existance?

[figheadair]

It's great to see proper hands-on weaving in action!

Is what you are weaving a replica of the added-red version that Garth mentions? Your photo makes it appear different from the woven examples of Black Watch Red Hackle to be found online, and the Register's digital image of it. I assume the red overstripes are placed differently.

I had imagined the original BW with the red overstripe running in place of the narrow black line on the green, or between the two central black lines on the blue.

Do you know of an original sample still in existance?

I'm weaving the tartan from Wilsons 1819 Key Pattern Book where it was called Coarse Kilt with Red. The 1790 Account Book listed it as Officers’, Sergeants’ and Privates' Kilts for the 42nd Regiment.

It was a simplified sett with alternating blue/green grounds.



Alas, there is no known surviving example but it appears to be the sett worn by John Murray 4th Duke of Atholl in this portrait c.1782. He'd served in the 42nd regiment and was a Murray - coincidence with the claim that Col Murray introduced the red line?

[Troglodyte]

I'm weaving the tartan from Wilsons 1819 Key Pattern Book where it was called Coarse Kilt with Red. The 1790 Account Book listed it as Officers’, Sergeants’ and Privates' Kilts for the 42nd Regiment.

It was a simplified sett with alternating blue/green grounds.



Alas, there is no known surviving example but it appears to be the sett worn by John Murray 4th Duke of Atholl in this portrait c.1782. He'd served in the 42nd regiment and was a Murray - coincidence with the claim that Col Murray introduced the red line?

It makes a simple but handsome tartan.

I have long thought that the Black watch with a single red overstripe (in place of the black) on the green only would make a useful alternative, allowing for pleating to the stripe in regimental style.

The portrait of the Duke of Athole and family reminds me of the Landseer Death of the Stag in Glen Tilt painted a few years leter. The duke himself is shown in lowland fashions of the era, but the kneeling ghillies appear to be kilted in something very similar to your tartan.

[OC Richard]

I'm weaving the tartan from Wilsons 1819 Key Pattern Book where it was called Coarse Kilt with Red. The 1790 Account Book listed it as Officers’, Sergeants’ and Privates' Kilts for the 42nd Regiment.

Alas, there is no known surviving example but it appears to be the sett worn by John Murray 4th Duke of Atholl in this portrait c.1782. He'd served in the 42nd regiment and was a Murray - coincidence with the claim that Col Murray introduced the red line?

I've often heard it said that the red line was for the Grenadier Company of the 42nd, but is there any evidence to support that?

It is true that Grenadier Companies had upgraded status and kit, such as shells on their jackets, extra yards in their kilts, and pipers.

The 1775 warrant to raise Fraser's Highlanders included permission for 2 pipers per Grenadier Company. This was then applied to all Highland regiments raised for the Napoleonic Wars. (The other companies were only authorised one drummer, though a piper was often carried on the roster as a drummer.) (It wasn't until 1854 that each regiment was authorised to maintain a pipe band.)

Just speculation, but I can imagine the Black Watch, after seeing so many other regiments adopt their tartan, wanting to make theirs unique by adding a red stripe to commemorate their unique red hackle.

[figheadair]

I've often heard it said that the red line was for the Grenadier Company of the 42nd, but is there any evidence to support that?

It is true that Grenadier Companies had upgraded status and kit, such as shells on their jackets, extra yards in their kilts, and pipers.

The 1775 warrant to raise Fraser's Highlanders included permission for 2 pipers per Grenadier Company. This was then applied to all Highland regiments raised for the Napoleonic Wars. (The other companies were only authorised one drummer, though a piper was often carried on the roster as a drummer.) (It wasn't until 1854 that each regiment was authorised to maintain a pipe band.)

Just speculation, but I can imagine the Black Watch, after seeing so many other regiments adopt their tartan, wanting to make theirs unique by adding a red stripe to commemorate their unique red hackle.

As far as I know, there is no reliable evidence that the 42nd Grenadiers wore a red line in their tartan.

Wilsons' records suggest that the Coarse Kilt with Red sett (source of the red line myth?) was worn by all ranks for fatigue dress (feileadh beag) from around 1780.