Black tie, Prince Charlie, but the tie is DECIDEDLY not black

[jsrnephdoc]

You will do what you want to do, but can I please, I beg you, to stick to the facts! Scotland is blighted with a myriad of false stories about just about everything about the kilt and its general history of Scotland already. We really don't need any more!

An after-thought. What is this idea of Scottish dress-up? The kilt is no dress-up! We do not live life in a theatre!The kilt is worn as daywear regularly by some and quite often by many, on occasion, that they think warrants it. "Dress-up" does not come into it! The kilt and its attire are regularly worn by many within Scotland for formal evening events and weddings. It is not a rare event in any way. With the greatest of respect, I think you really need to re-calibrate your thinking and---- by more than a bit.

Jock, I'm here to learn. My family roots are in Pitlochry. I've only been in Scotland twice, and found it to be a fascinating place. It's true that much of what I've read or been told about the history of Highland Wear comes from sources in the USA, but I read similar things from the mills and kilt shops in Scotland itself.

Here is the first place I've read that Ghillie Brogues evolved from quickly-draining (tongueless, laced up the calf footwear that servants of landowners wore to carry their masters over marshes and peat bogs). Is that not the case?

I've also been told that the contemporary kilt evolved from the shepherd's "great kilt" only in the 19th century, stimulated actually by newfound English tolerance for Scots wearing kilts (but stimulated more by interest in financial gain from selling them rather than from any penance or regret for precipitating the "cleansing" after Culloden.

I've also been told that if one is walking down a street in Scotland and encounters a man wearing a kilt, there are a few most probable reasons:

1. He's an American, Canadian, or Australian tourist (most likely)
2. He's on his way to or way home from a wedding or graduation
3. He works in a kilt shop

Is that untrue?

Is the origin story of the Sgian Dubh tucked into one's kilt hose (that it told a host being visited that the guest had no evil intent, rather than keeping the little knife tucked into one's armpit.

Is THAT untrue?

If Ghillie Brogues are NOT appropriate for wearing to formal events, where ARE they appropriate, and why do the kilt shops always display and sell them. And, if not Ghillie Brogues, what DOES one wear to a formal event while wearing a kilt.

Again, I'm here to learn, not to preach or presume anything whatsoever.

[jsrnephdoc]

Oops, sorry: I meant to say that here is the first place I've read that Ghillie Brogues did NOT evolve from that legendary tale.

[Jock Scot]

I am no historian, but I respectfully suggest that most of what you have said in your last post would be what we would call “biscuit tin” history. What do I mean? It’s the starry eyed version of Scottish history, of dubious accuracy, printed on biscuit tins to help sell them! I can't say that any of these things never ever happened as I was not around One,two, three ,four centuries, or more centuries ago, but I suggest you read a lot more informed literature before you venture into print. You really need to talk to genuine historians who have more than a fair idea of how and what was done all those years ago.

There are some very well informed members on this website too, who could at least “ point you in the right direction”. I regret to say that your post above and what you believe to be true is mostly nonsense.

I can’ t tell you what to do, but my advice is to “ hurry very slowly “ with your mission.

[figheadair]

Here is the first place I've read that Ghillie Brogues evolved from quickly-draining (tongueless, laced up the calf footwear that servants of landowners wore to carry their masters over marshes and peat bogs). Is that not the case?

That is the idea behind them but they are in fact a 19th century invention.

I've also been told that the contemporary kilt evolved from the shepherd's "great kilt" only in the 19th century, stimulated actually by newfound English tolerance for Scots wearing kilts (but stimulated more by interest in financial gain from selling them rather than from any penance or regret for precipitating the "cleansing" after Culloden.

The belted plaid or feileadh mor (note, the term great kilt is a recent US invention) was never Scottish dress, it was the basic garment of the highlander in the 17th to mid-18th centuries. And it was the British, not English, government that imposed and repealed the Dress Act. There was no wholesale cleansing after Culloden although certain Jacobite supporting areas of the Highlands such a Mull and Lochaber did suffer reprisals after the Rising.

I've also been told that if one is walking down a street in Scotland and encounters a man wearing a kilt, there are a few most probable reasons:

1. He's an American, Canadian, or Australian tourist (most likely)
2. He's on his way to or way home from a wedding or graduation
3. He works in a kilt shop

There are a few of us that wear a kilt on a more regular basis. For some reason, some tourists seem to think that we're some sort of living history players that gives them the right to stop us and demand photos.

Is the origin story of the Sgian Dubh tucked into one's kilt hose (that it told a host being visited that the guest had no evil intent, rather than keeping the little knife tucked into one's armpit.

Is THAT untrue?

More romanticised nonsense I'm afraid. The sgian dubh was a Highland Revival attribution. The earliest example is from a portrait of 1812.

If Ghillie Brogues are NOT appropriate for wearing to formal events, where ARE they appropriate, and why do the kilt shops always display and sell them. And, if not Ghillie Brogues, what DOES one wear to a formal event while wearing a kilt.

I'm not a fan of Ghillie Brogues, have never worn them and never will. For evening wear I prefer buckle brogues.

[jsrnephdoc]

Thanks, figheadair, for your very helpful posts. I'll note again that I'm hear to learn, not to pontificate. However, I WILL assert that some of what you and others refer to as almost nonsense is propagated by your own institutions. During my first visit to Scotland, now about 2 decades ago, I spent a better part of a day at the Edinburgh Castle Museum. That followed by less than 24 hours a long visit to the Verdun WW1 Memorial, where the VERY clear message was a plea "Never, ever, EVER let us do these awful things to one another again." Of course, that message was forgotten less than 20 years after the end of WW1. In Edinburgh, the museum seemed almost to chant in 4 part harmony, "yeah, we know them English have slaughtered us on the battlefield, again and again, but just give us one more chance with our dirks and Claymores, and we'll slaughter 'em all."

OK, that's a bit hyperbolic, but the "romantic" notions of oppressed highlanders don't all come from tales invented by the Scottish Diaspora.

On my second visit (2023) we spent several hours at the Culloden Museum and wandering around the battlefield itself, and the message was much the same. The "Cleansing" was emphasized. Although it was stated that many, many clans were non-participants in the Rebellions, and that it was at least partly "Religious Politics" rather than "Highlanders vs. the English," some of the NOW Romanticized elements of Scottish history were either downplayed or just not mentioned, e.g., over here in the Colonies we think of "The Black Watch" as almost symbolic of Scottish culture. I don't remember EVER being reminded at Culloden that the Black Watch was a BRITISH army regiment that helped to quell the rebellion.

I apologize if my terminology is incorrect regarding governments; i.e., the origins of the Articles of Proscription being a product of the BRITISH rather than ENGLISH government. However, I think my understanding that they originated from the English holders of the reins of government rather than a unified government of Great Britain is still correct, much as I hope that people outside the U.S. don't think that our entire country has gone mad in the interest of destroying it, as the current holders of the reins of American (U.S., very much NOT united at the moment) seem to be intent on doing, at the perils of the entire planet!

[Jock Scot]

Yes, The English do often get blamed for historical misdeeds when it was actually the British who were at fault. I have more than once heard it myself and quite often and only recently at the visitor centre at Culloden. After listening to this misinformation too many times that day, I took the guide aside and reminded him that more Scots fought on the British side than on the side of Bonny Prince Charlie.He was, unsurprisingly, not best pleased with me. To his credit he went and checked and later on in the day he actually found me and confirmed what I had told him.

In my experience the English do regularly get blamed for just about everything by the Scots, including the weather! Its just one of those things, the English just have to live with!

[Father Bill]

Of course the weather is the fault of the English.
...and by the way, Jock, what do the Welsh and Irish contribute to the general ill?

[Jock Scot]

Of course the weather is the fault of the English.
...and by the way, Jock, what do the Welsh and Irish contribute to the general ill?

I am not sure if the Welsh in any number were represented at the battle, but I think the Irish had a part to play in the BPC's team.In the following later years, particularly in the Fort William area the Irish were represented by a large team of navies who much later tunnelled right through the base of Ben Nevis. A Huge tunnel that is still in use today and is undeniably a magnificent feat of engineering.They also had a hand in the construction of the Caledonian Canal too and another magnificent piece of engineering that is still in use today. Many of their ancestors still reside here in the locality in fair numbers.

[Father Bill]

I appreciate the history. My reference meant more about what they're normally blamed for in various other circumstances.

[Allan Thomson]

I am not sure if the Welsh in any number were represented at the battle, but I think the Irish had a part to play in the BPC's team.In the following later years, particularly in the Fort William area the Irish were represented by a large team of navies who much later tunnelled right through the base of Ben Nevis. A Huge tunnel that is still in use today and is undeniably a magnificent feat of engineering.They also had a hand in the construction of the Caledonian Canal too and another magnificent piece of engineering that is still in use today. Many of their ancestors still reside here in the locality in fair numbers.

The Royal Welch was there on the government side, and there was also Welsh Jacobites.

Plenty of Irish on both sides.