A tartan conundrum.

[ozone]

The brits are silly anyway, I would just ignore mr. purchase-the-barony guy and follow the wise advice of the previous posters.

A related question is: why would GB allow people buy these titles anyway? Doesn't this just dilute the meaning of a title. To me, people should have to earn this kind of stuff. I know, I know, perhaps singing well doesn't necessarily deserve a title, but at least Elton John and others did have to DO something to earn their title rather than show up with a wad of cash.

My Dutch ancestor earned their title by helping out during the 100 year war...OK so anyone with a sword apparently got a title back then, but still....

[Bob C]

While I love Rocky's suggestion, I could not possibly afford both the commissioning of a tartan and the divorce that would ensue after I told my wife what I spent a bunch of our money on.

[macwilkin]

The brits are silly anyway, I would just ignore mr. purchase-the-barony guy and follow the wise advice of the previous posters.

A related question is: why would GB allow people buy these titles anyway? Doesn't this just dilute the meaning of a title. To me, people should have to earn this kind of stuff. I know, I know, perhaps singing well doesn't necessarily deserve a title, but at least Elton John and others did have to DO something to earn their title rather than show up with a wad of cash.

My Dutch ancestor earned their title by helping out during the 100 year war...OK so anyone with a sword apparently got a title back then, but still....

Generally speaking, the Brits do not allow the sale of titles, with the exception of Scottish barons:

http://www.faketitles.com/

And chances are "The Baron" is a Yank, not a Brit, So silly Yanks as well.

And are you sure your Dutch ancestor didn't get his title in the 30 Year's War?

T.

[gilmore]

Generally speaking, the Brits do not allow the sale of titles, with the exception of Scottish barons:

http://www.faketitles.com/

And chances are "The Baron" is a Yank, not a Brit, So silly Yanks as well.

And are you sure your Dutch ancestor didn't get his title in the 30 Year's War?

T.

What is purchasable is not the title "baron" (they are something quite different), but the purchase of a title peculiar to Scotland by quirks or law and history, known as "baron of parliament."The former, the real barons, are in the peerage of Scotland. The latter, the barons of parliament, have the right to sit in the old parliament of the kingdom of Scotland (not the present devolved Scottish parliament) should it ever be recalled, an event that is most improbable. The Act of Union would have to be repealed, Scotland and England would go their separate ways, there would have to be a monarch of Scotland, etc. They were known as "lairds." What made a laird a laird was the owning of land, that is, holding it from the crown or from a great noble. In latter days this came to mean needing to own only the caput of the land, which came to be defined as including, or even limited to, the main hearth of the largest house, or "seat." So, a rather small piece of land could be sold and carry with it the right to be known as "Laird of XXXXX." One's eldest son was know as "Smith, the Younger of XXXX." Some of these lairdships carried quaint and archaic rights and privileges, such as the right to the salmon in a stream running through the land, the right to beached whales, the right to hold court and enforce some laws, the right to appoint a judge to preside over that court, etc. These were the only titles of nobility in Europe that could be legally bought and sold.

A few years ago, the Blair government abolished feudal tenure of land altogether, but since there was, and still is, a market for these titles (albeit a shady one), these titles have value in and of themselves, sometimes GBP 50,000 or more. In order to abolish these lairdships, the government would have had to reimburse their owners for their value, a cost of millions or billions. The solution was to sever the titles' connection with the land so they are freely marketed. This has created a host of problems. There is no system of recording the ownership these landless "lairdships" or of their being bought and sold or inherited. The Lyon court's approach has confused as much as it has clarified. For a thorough discussion, go to here: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t.../topics?lnk=li and search for Scottish baronies. You will find a wealth of excrutiatingly erudite opinion, but not much of it conclusive: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...rch+this+group

I do not travel in upper class British circles, but my understanding is that these people who buy them with serious intent (unlike our Hamish, Laird of Lochaber) are either pitied or scorned and ridiculed. One sees pictures of them online sometimes with various chiefs of clans and aristocrats who are often smiling broadly, but one can't tell whether they are being laughed with or laughed at.

Being the head of a clan is a very different matter and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one is a laird/baron of parliament, baron, viscount, earl, marquess or duke. Only heads of the clans which have been recognized by Lyon (the legal arbiter of Scottish heraldry) are chiefs or chieftans, and these are the ones who traditionally and by custom decide what their clan's tartan will be. This decreeing of what a clan tartan is does not at all have the force of law, but merely custom (other than if it comes under the laws of copyright.) Disputes of what a clan or family tartan is cannot be brought before Lyon Court, as can disputes arising out of some one illegally using some one else's arms (coat of arms, crest, etc) as his own.

Declaring oneself a "head of a family" is yet something else, and millions of people do that every time a census is taken, I suppose. Legally, I would think it means that one is head of one's household, so I guess one can decree that the wearing of a "family" tartan in this case to include one's children, spouse and perhaps a few others who are living with you, such as paying boarders one may have taken in to help meet the rent.

So, it is true, he may be titled (though the title in question is not held in great esteem by anyone the least bit knowledgeable in such matters) and he may be head of some family or another (although that is limited to his wife, children and those of his siblings who go along with his pretensions), and he may thus be a "titled head of his family," I don't see how this has anything at all to do with you, your family or anyone else with the same surname.

There will always be prideful people with more money than sense, and there will always be those who are happy to separate them from their money. There is no need to be angry. Rather, you could be happy that you are not as foolish or gullible as some.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Since I designed the tartan in question, let me chime in here before thigns get too out of hand.

David C____ is the Baron of ______ and he is the one who commissioned me to design the tartan. When he contacted me, he said he wanted to design a tartan "for my family and to be available to anyone of the name C____ or a derivative."

He never once claimed to be the head of the family or "cheif of the name" or anything else like that.

In a PM conversation with Bob C., I was speaking to the fact that David C_____'s title as Baron of _____ gives the tartan a bit more of an official status than had it been commissioned by "Dave C_____ from New Jersey" (in other words, just any old person named C_____).

When a private individual creates a new tartan for his family name, unless he has some authority to speak for the name, it is only recorded as a "personal" tartan. For instance, if I designed a "Newsome" tartan, it would be considered a personal tartan. This doesn't prevent anyone from wearing it who wants to, but it simply recognizes that I don't have any more authority to declare a tartan for all Newsomes than Bob Newsome from Ontario or Jim Newsome from Tazmania.

David C_____, being an actial Scottish Baron, has a bit more status in this regard, so his tartan can truly be considered a "family tartan."

When communicating to Bob C., it was I who used the phrase "head of family" in an attempt to convey this. I was completely unaware of the existence of the Earl of C_____. When Bob pointed this out to me, I immediately corrected myself. I just want to point out now that the reference I made to David C_____ as "head of family" was my mistake, made in a private conversation. In none of my correspondence with Mr. C_____ has he made such claims about himself.

(I did give Bob C. David's email address so that he might contact him for details himself -- Bob, I don't know if you ever contacted him directly or what information he may have given to you, I can only speak of my own conversations with him.)

The C_____ tartan that I designed for the Baron of _____ was based on elements of Mr. C_____'s family history as he supplied the details to me. The Barony, according to him, originally belonged to the Crawford family, so he wanted elements of the Lindsay/Crawford tartan to be involved to honor them. His father and uncle served in the Black Watch regiment, so elements of that tartan are incorporated. Colors from his Arms are also used.

Mr. C_____ is rather involved in preserving and promoting Scottish history -- he was a founder of the National Museum of Scotland and is a Fellow of the Society of Antiquities of Scotland. He seems very interested in making his new tartan available to the wider public for general use by all of the name. I know he has been in communication with Strathmore woolen mills, and I have supplied him with the contact details for a few other tartan weavers in Scotland who may be interested.

Whatever else, he is very interested in there being a tartan for the ______ name available to the public, and that's a good thing.

Now, if the Earl of C_____ decides to commission a different tartan and give his blessing to it, then perhaps this tartan would have to be redesignated "C_____ of ______" but as it stands now it is the only tartan for the name.

I just want to be clear in this posting that David C______, Baron of ______, had never to me made any claims to be head of the worldwide C______ name, and simply wanted to have a tartan "for my family and to be available for any of the name C______ or a derivative" (his own words). I am very sorry if I at all misrepresented his position in my correspondence with Bob C.

Aye,
Matt

[Woodsheal]

Bob,

Matt's explanation clears things up considerably, if you ask me. Since David ______ has NOT made the claim that was troubling you - "head of the family" - and since you do like the new tartan, I'd say go for it and wear it proudly! That additional fact that Mr Cairns is a serious supporter of Scottish culture and historic preservation should make you feel better, too....

[macwilkin]

Bob,

Matt's explanation clears things up considerably, if you ask me. Since David ______ has NOT made the claim that was troubling you - "head of the family" - and since you do like the new tartan, I'd say go for it and wear it proudly! That additional fact that Mr Cairns is a serious supporter of Scottish culture and historic preservation should make you feel better, too....

I have to second this; Matt's post certainly sheds some light on the subject, to be sure. Bob, have you contacted Mr. ______? I think you might want to, sounds like he of "our ilk" in promoting Scottish heritage.

Like Brian said, I would have no concerns wearing this tartan given the updated information.

Cheers,

Todd

[Warlock]

Save your pennies and design your own! Make it "family name Hunting" or "Family Name Dress" or "Family Name Variant" or "Family Name of California (or whatever state you're from)... no reason 1 family can't have MORE than 1 tartan.

Congratulations! On creating your new tartan. This rather long email contains all the information you might need to turn your design into reality! In particular this email talks about registration. You can look at more information about different fabrics online .

REGISTERING YOUR NEW TARTAN

When applying for registration, we like to provide some explanation of the design, in what is called the "rationale" of the design. This might include the tartans on which the design is based, as many new designs are intended as variations of existing Clan tartans. It might also include the idea that prompted the design, like a wedding or an anniversary.

The registrar also needs to know if you intend to keep the copyright of the pattern. In the UK and many countries worldwide, this right is automatic - so long as you can prove the date and origin of your work. However, some tartan designers have a different intention. They actively want as many people as possible to share the tartan as a mark of family identity. In this case, you must indicate that the tartan may be freely woven and worn.

Here are some of the more important considerations which can be found at the Scottish Tartans Authority website.

Registration requires two samples of fabric 18 x 12 inches, so the registration cannot be completed until the fabric is woven. It is important to take account of this when calculating the length you require.
The name of the tartan must not conflict with any Scottish armigerous family. If there is a Coat of Arms for a family or clan name already in existence, then the designer of the new tartan must seek the approval of the chief of the 'whole name' before adopting the name for the new tartan. A similar rule applies to the names of District Tartans. A City Council or State Legislature should endorse the naming of a new tartan.
Clients can register the tartan themselves by applying directly to the Scottish Tartans Authority (registration@tartansauthority.com ) and paying the appropriate fee of GBP 85.
WOOL FABRICS AND KILTS

Worsted: A fine, smooth, firm, compact yarn spun of tightly twisted wool fibers.

Worsted 510g (15oz) heavyweight wool cloth is made especially for kilts. The minimum order is 5 metres (5.5 yards approx) and you would require 7.33 metres (8 yards) single width for a traditional kilt. Single width fabric is 72cms (28 inches) in width, and double width fabric is 1.42 metres (56 inches) in width. Approximate delivery time 8/10 weeks.

WORSTED 'SAMPLE PIECE' Package - GBP 492 (US$ 892) Total cost (excluding duties and taxes).
House of Tartan completes the whole process for you including :-

Registration of your design including submission of sample fabric pieces. GBP 85
Preparation of the Weavers Ticket, GBP 80
10 metre length of worsted wool - mediumweight or heavyweight. GBP 334
Fabric Width 71cms (28 inches)

WORSTED SAMPLE WITH KILT Package - GBP 562 (US$ 1020) (excluding duties and taxes).
Includes:-

Weavers ticket based on your design GBP 80
10 metre length of worsted wool - mediumweight or heavyweight. GBP 337
Handmade traditional kilt, makeup only GBP 145
* Optional extras - £85 to register your tartan with the Scottish Tartan Authority – see ‘Registering your new Tartan’.

WORSTED BULK ORDER Packages

10 metres (11 yards) double width @ GBP 65 / metre GBP 650 (US$ 1179)
15 metres (16.5 yards) double width @ GBP 48.83 / metre GBP 732 (US$ 1328)
25 metres (27 yards) double width @ GBP 32.80 / metre GBP 820 (US$ 1487)
58 metres (1 piece) double width @ GBP 26.95 / metre GBP 1563 (US$ 2835)
* Optional extras - + £85 to register your tartan with the Scottish Tartan Authority – see ‘Registering your new Tartan’

I hope this information is helpful and I look forward to hearing from you.

Warmest regards from
Maxine.

HOUSE of TARTAN (in conjuntion with the SCOTTISH TARTANS AUTHORITY)

Notes:
UK and EU VAT fiscal area customers. VAT is not shown in the prices quoted
Import duties and taxes may be applied in countries outside the European Community.
US$ guide prices are calculated at $1.85 to GBP 1.00. This price is liable to fluctuate.



Goodness knows the Frasers have around 25!

[gilmore]

When a private individual creates a new tartan for his family name, unless he has some authority to speak for the name, it is only recorded as a "personal" tartan. For instance, if I designed a "Newsome" tartan, it would be considered a personal tartan. This doesn't prevent anyone from wearing it who wants to, but it simply recognizes that I don't have any more authority to declare a tartan for all Newsomes than Bob Newsome from Ontario or Jim Newsome from Tazmania.

David C___, being an actial Scottish Baron, has a bit more status in this regard, so his tartan can truly be considered a "family tartan."


The C___ tartan that I designed for the Baron of F___ was based on elements of Mr. C___s' family history as he supplied the details to me. The Barony, according to him, originally belonged to the Crawford family, so he wanted elements of the Lindsay/Crawford tartan to be involved to honor them. His father and uncle served in the Black Watch regiment, so elements of that tartan are incorporated. Colors from his Arms are also used....

I just want to be clear in this posting that D____ C___, Baron of F____, had never to me made any claims to be head of the worldwide C___ name, and simply wanted to have a tartan "for my family and to be available for any of the name C___ or a derivative" (his own words). I am very sorry if I at all misrepresented his position in my correspondence with Bob C.

Aye,
Matt

The man in question is not a Scottish baron. He is a feudal baron, the owner of a curious anomaly in Scottish and UK law.

Barons are peers who are entitled to sit in the House of Lords, subject to election. Feudal barons are NOT peers and were entitled to sit in the Parliament of Scotland several hundred years ago, when Scotland was a kingdom.

Barons are styled "Lord XXXX." Feudal barons are styled "Laird of XXXX."

Under accepted custom, the person in question has no more status in creating a tartan for a family name than anyone else who is not the chief or chieftain of a clan.

According to Guy Star Sainty, an authority on heraldry:

"...it is true that Scottish
feudal Baronies can be acquired by purchase. Furthermore, unlike any
other purchased title, provided the proper forms are followed (i.e.
provided the purchaser has matriculated arms in Scotland, and properly records
the acquisition with the lord Lyon), this is a genuine title of nobility.
[emphasis added]...

Scottish [feudal] baronies, however, have always been bought and sold and although
some were granted by the Crown to X and his descendants male, or some such,
the subsequent holders were able to alienate them legally. Their proper
acquisition, following the correct procedures, entitles the holder
to the title itself, as Baron of X... and his wife to be Baroness of X...,
and although a female who acquires a Barony becomes a Baroness, her husband
would not become a Baron. It also entitles the holder to precedence in
Scotland after Queen's Counsels and before Esquires and Gentlemen ...They also entitle the holder to certain heraldic privileges in Scotland.


There is no difference in my opinion whether such a [feudal] barony was acquired by
purchase in 2000, 1900, or 1800. Scottish feudalism was by this time
merely nominal anyway, and the privileges of the barons have not changed
in the last 200 years. Its legality and validity remain the same anyway.

[This was seemingly written before the Abolition of Feudal Tenures Act of 2004 when all forms of feudal holding of land were abolished and the holding of a feudal barony became a mere style, disassociated with land ownership or any other substantive rights and privileges.]

The only question you must ask is whether you actually believe such an
investment is worthwhile - in the sense that these limited privileges
are worth $40,000. You would be entitled to be the A(Your name) of Y...
(the Barony), and your children, should you have any, N (first name)
A (last name) of Y... Do you care? Would they care? Would your friends
be impressed by your transformation, or would they speculate as to
your good-sense in spending $40,000 on such a vanity? "


So, one would think that the tartan in question here should already be called "C___ of F___," since that is the proper style of the person who had it designed.

We are talking about the elaborations of two or three different forms of society and three different kinds of status, and then conflating them.

Under (the vestiges of) the CLAN system, with which tartans are traditionally associated, it is the chief of the clan or the chieftan of a sept who decides what a tartan will be for those who are associated with his or her clan or sept. This is an "ancient" custom dating all the way back to the early to mid 19th century when the idea of clan tartans was invented by wool mill owners and kilt merchants and foisted upon a newly rich middle class nostalgic for, but largely ignorant of, its rural past.

Under the FEUDAL system, which was introduced into Scotland later than the clan system, a person may hold land in fief from the king or sometimes from a great noble, and was known as a feudal baron. It would not be too inaccuarate to characterize feudal barons as simply the landlords of their day. It is these who are the subject of our discussion here.

In the PEERAGE a baron is the lowest rank, below viscounts. And as you can see from Mr Sainty's description above, the holders of feudal baronies rank far below barons in order of precedence, immediately below the goverment's lawyers who prosecute crimes.

I know this can appear complicated, but to clarify one's understanding, see: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...rch+this+group

or try this message board: http://scotshistoryonline.co.uk/HSSforum/index.php

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Bob,

I apologize for revealing your last name to the board, I honestly had no idea that you were attempting to keep it anonymous. Probably because I already knew the tartan you were talking about, it did not even dawn on me until I went back and re-read it just now that you never actually named the tartan in your first post. I should have picked up on that, so I'm sorry.

I just edited me previous post and this one to omit any reference to the name -- if others would like to please do the same this would maintain Bob C.'s requested anonymity. Thanks.

Secondly, if you do choose to contact David C_____, please don't do so just to tell him how pretentous you think he is. If you've never spoken to him, on what do you form your opinion? Like I said in my previous post, the confusion over him being "titled head of family" was due solely to an error on my part, which I have duly retracted. It is not a claim he has ever made.

And please don't think that all people who purchase these kinds of titles are pretentious title-seekers. I don't know the circumstances of David C_____'s acquisition of the title, so I think it is horribly unfair to assume poor intentions. I know another "bought baron" who scraped up enough family money to buy the baronial title that was for sale in his ancestral homeland so that the title could remain with a local family and not be bought by someone with no connection to the region. He's very much involved in Scottish history, culture, and heraldry, and is a stand-up gent. So not all "bought barons" are deserving of this kind of negative sentiment.

What it boils down to is this. Anyone can design a tartan, or commission a tartan to be designed for them. It happens all the time. However, the only one who has the authority to proclaim in an official capacity what is and is not an authorized tartan is the person who has authority over whatever the tartan is for (the cheif of a clan, the CEO of a corporation, etc.) This being the case, the vast majority[ of tartans out there are, in a strict sense, fashion tartans or personal tartans. (Even some common, traditional tartans -- for instance my own clan MacQuarrie hasn't had a cheif in over 200 years and so has never had any "official" tartan, despite there being several well recognized tartans for the clan).

David C_____, Baron of _____, like so many other people interested in their Scottish heritage, has commissioned a new tartan for his name where there was none before. Whether it ultimately gets designated "C____ of _____," or just "C____," or whether it is recorded by the STA as a family tartan or a personal tartan, is ultimately up to the STA, as they maintain the records. And it may change over time!

These things are not set in stone, to be certain!

I just want to make sure that David C_____, whom I assume from my correspondence with him to be a decent, honest man with good intentions, is not maligned in this public forum based on suppositions and assumptions. Especially since he is only guilty of doing what many good members of this forum have been congradulated for doing in the past -- wanting to add to the Highland Dress tradition by creating a new tartan for his name.

Aye,
Matt