Irish Tartans Questions

[Gàidhlig]

The Utilikilts Caramel Workman's is a color pretty close to saffron but not sure how it'd be for a lady.

Aye, Looking to get her a kilted skirt in an Irish Tartan. Maybe a period dress...not sure what to call them, but typically you see women at ren-fairs wearing them.
I'm not real sure which direction to take, however I know my first destination is finding the tartan. I punched in "Irish Tartan" in my brain based Garmen and it directed me here.
I also have the distinct feeling that punching in Kilted skirt making, or whatever I decide, is going to lead me right back here. I think I'll pull up a chair. I may be here a while.

[fluter]

So the County Crest and Irish County are different designs. Can someone point me to a link where I can view the County Crest design? All the County ones I find seem to be HOE's. My google lead me to believe MMCC was their mean line, but their site doesn't show their Highland Mean line.

I have had the problem that when I'm looking at a vendor's Web site, I can't remember which mill they feature. My recourse was to use kiltstore.net's tartan finder---select their ad at the top of this page, select Tartan and Fabric Finder.

To see the MM line, enter "county crest" in the name search. Better yet, to see both MM and HoE, enter "irish county". Selecting the county name will bring up both tartans, if they are available.

[Cage]

Most Excellent advice. Thank you Fluter.

[fluter]

Lest I forget, from sunny South Carolina.

Aye, Looking to get her a kilted skirt in an Irish Tartan. Maybe a period dress...not sure what to call them, but typically you see women at ren-fairs wearing them. I may be here a while.

Yes, you have fallen among a crowd which loves to discuss the interesting questions, and you've asked one.

"Period dress" could be anything from a silk gown to a homespun arisaid. The arisaid---spellings vary---similar to a man's belted plaid, may be what you have in mind.

Several of our sponsors will fix you up with a kilted skirt, from mini- to cocktail to floor-length. Those links are to Celtic Croft, see also USA Kilts, kiltstore.net (good pictures), the Scottish Tartans Museum. All are XMTS sponsors, too.

To get the county tartans, you'll be looking at a wool skirt. If you're open to a more generic Irish theme, USAK has the Ireland's National tartan in (washable) polyviscose. Sport Kilt has some Irish flavors. In wool, there is "All Ireland" with a green, blue, or red basic color; Irish National, Irish American. Obviously, pick one that she likes.

As noted, none of these have any government recognition. I have a fondness for some "fashion" district tartans, in part because of family associations with particular places. For me, that's sufficient reason to wear a pattern that I like; and being a tartan junkie, I'll be happily buying kilts for some time to come. I also have designs on some official district tartans, such as Carolina and Nova Scotia.

[gilmore]

I came across this article by Patrick Joseph Dinan, late chief of the Irish clan Dinan. He writes that traditionally the Irish clans were identified with kilts and other dress of a solid color specific to that clan. Unfortunately, he is light on citations of his sources.

"THE IRISH KILT by The O'Dinan

I am one of those few-or perhaps many-people who still cling to the old Celtic way of life. Everything concerning our Irish heritage is of interest to me especially kilts and heraldry.

Many years ago I began serious research into Irish clan life and manner of dress. At that time, like the vast majority of people, I had the impression that our forbears wore saffron coloured kilts only. As I began to dig more and more into our past, I came up with some surprising results. The first was that Scott's romantic, if misguided claim of an ancient Irish saffron kilt does not tally with historical fact. Indeed, Scott based his assumption on the fact that Irish chiefs usually wore saffron cloaks. Therefore they must have worn saffron kilts. A false assumption.

The evidence is now conclusive that every Irish clan family had its own distinctive kilt colour. Unlike the Scots with their different coloured family tartans, Irish families had a preference for one-colour kilts, and I have collected the authentic colours of 200 Irish clan family kilts and coats of arms. And still the search goes on for the remainder, though I doubt if there arc many more.

The Irish clan system was, broadly speaking, similar to the Scottish- both countries were still and are inhabited by the Celtic race. Clan septs were of two classes: clansmen of the clan, who were related by blood and who formed separate branches of the clan; and those families who were related by marriage to other clan families.

This was especially shown in the colours of the kilts. For example: one clan family wearing a red kilt and another family, living perhaps a hundred miles away, wearing a light red kilt, indicated a bond between both families.

Though linen and silk were used in the making of kilts, woollen kilts were also worn during the winter months. I am of the opinion that linen and silk may well have been used more on special occasions than for everyday use, though I feel sure the ladies would feel more comfortable in light clothing.

Generally a single clan inhabited an area of land, but where two or more clans inhabited the same territory, a desire, or a necessity arose which made a differentiation necessary, and this was solved by a change of colours, and also by the wearing of a plant badge on other headgear or next to the heart.

It was a simple yet effective way of denoting one's family, by wearing a sprig of plant or flower. This close association with nature may well be of pre-Christian origin. Chiefs, or those occupying a high position in the clan family, usually had the front of their kilts embroidered with their respective Coats of Arms, a Norman fashion.

Norman knights adorned their coats with their family Arms. Hence the term "Coat of Arms". The following example of my own family may help to make the position clear: Family Name -Dinan. Mediaeval Location - Co. Tipperary. Kilt-Dark Blue. Plant Badge-The Holly.

At the siege of Limerick, one of my ancestors, the clan chief was killed. The clan territory was confiscated and the family moved over the Shannon River into Clare, where it has remained to this day. Though I am entitled to use the hereditary title 'The O'Dinan', it appears incongruous in a Republic.

Up to and including the Norman invasion, the Irish, like the rest of Europe, wore a tunic stretching from the shoulders to the knees, made out of either leather, wool, linen or silk. This applied to both sexes, though breeches may also have been worn by the men. Ireland was a great supplier of linen, and to a lesser extent silk, to most countries, especially to Scotland, which followed the Irish fashion of using linen clothing.

With the turmoil caused by the Elizabethan wars in Ireland, the supply of linen dropped and the Irish, like the Scots, were forced to use the lower part of the tunic, that is from the waist to the knees, the upper part being abandoned for lack of material. The lower part became the forerunner of todays kilt.

The Scots, a very enterprising people, began to use wool more and more, and came up with the now famous tartan kilt which they still retain. The Irish still continued to use linen to make kilts, though less and less as wool took over.

By the end of the sixteenth century the country was devastated by the Elizabethan soldiers. The old Celtic way was ended, a way of life that had existed for over two thousand years, and with it went the kilt.

The length of material used in making an Irish kilt was determined by wrapping the material four times round the wearer, which is approximately 12 feet in length for a man and a little less for a woman. The width was measured from the waist to the centre of the knees. The kilt was then made, plaited and sewn.

Sufficient cloth was left plain at both ends, which were then crossed in front of the body and the whole fastened by a belt round the waist, the aprons being fastened with a large pin a few inches above the lower edge of the kilt. Linen, silk and wool are the traditional materials used.

I regret to say that those lovely young girls from the various Irish dancing schools, who are a delight to watch, should stop wearing black tights or any tights for that matter, because they are just not traditional. The costumes worn including the shoulder cape are shortened versions of what a high ranking Irish lady would wear on a special occasion during mediaeval times.

I had the good fortune to be, allowed to make a sketch, from a private collection, of the wife of an Irish chief paying a visit to the court of Queen Elizabeth 1. The lady in question wore a dress or gown, with long sleeves. The dress stretched to the ankles and was green in colour, her family colour. It was embroidered with the usual Celtic design, though the front of the dress was embroidered with her own family coat of arms. She wore a saffron cloak. Generally speaking, Irish ladies were not liked by the ladies of the court of Elizabeth, who considered them too proud. I have the feeling they were rather envious of them.

NOTE: This article sparked a debate about Irish Tartans and as a result the club recognises both the plain and kilts where the tartan is "Irish". "

http://www.somebody.to/od.htm

[Gàidhlig]

You know, to further complicate things, as I've looked through many sites' avalible tartans I've come across the firefighters memorial tartan. Which would look really nice matched with our Modern MacPherson red. As my wifes father was a 45 year veteran firefighter.
Oh the choices...far too great they are.

[TheKiltedWonder]

I saw that article by the O'Dinan, but I haven't seen a thread of proof for any of it. I would love if there was a Doyle, O'Lyon or Kinneally tartan in his 200 family kilts, but I ust don't think they ever existed. At least not historically.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The notion of Irish clans being identified historically by varying shades of solid color kilts seems to be pure fantasy. I've never seen one shred of historical evidence to back it up.

[Bugbear]

Sorry, I will stay out of this.

[sharpdressedscot]

Does anybody know the list of families in O'Dinan's list?