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Thread: Celtic Crest

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  1. #1
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    Some Customs, It Seems, Are More Honoured In The Breach Than In The Keeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post
    Does that mean these blazer patches carried by the Scottish Tartan Museum are incorrect then?

    http://giftshop.scottishtartans.org/blazer.html

    (Just wondering... )
    It is easy to overlook the "blue strap"-- probably neither the vendor nor the manufacturer knew that blue straps are a no-no. What can't be overlooked is the name embroidered under the clansman's badge. That's just tacky. (But then in my opinion blazer badges are tacky, so this embroidered name thing just compounds the offense as far as I'm concerned.)

    As far as the Lyon's opinion regarding the display of polychromatic clansman's badges is concerned... see the headline above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown View Post
    It is easy to overlook the "blue strap"-- probably neither the vendor nor the manufacturer knew that blue straps are a no-no. What can't be overlooked is the name embroidered under the clansman's badge. That's just tacky. (But then in my opinion blazer badges are tacky, so this embroidered name thing just compounds the offense as far as I'm concerned.)

    As far as the Lyon's opinion regarding the display of polychromatic clansman's badges is concerned... see the headline above.
    Thank you

    I think a lot of vendors do not know then that this is a "no-no" as you & Frank have explained. I've seen many such blazer crests (some without the name tag) and clan banners with blue in the strap.
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  3. #3
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    I'm in the process of having a new tartan banner made for our clan booth, and I received the following from the maker:

    I use the Book of Crest for my source and have other artwork which has been provided by the different clans. I have not done a Mackay, but I do have the artwork which is the dexter arm erect, couped at the elbow, the hand grasping a dagger (also erect). The wreath colors are azure (blue) and silver.

    Okay, so then it wouldn't be proper to display the blue within the strap (what she refers to as a wreath), even with silver instead of gold?
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

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    macwilkin is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post
    I'm in the process of having a new tartan banner made for our clan booth, and I received the following from the maker:

    I use the Book of Crest for my source and have other artwork which has been provided by the different clans. I have not done a Mackay, but I do have the artwork which is the dexter arm erect, couped at the elbow, the hand grasping a dagger (also erect). The wreath colors are azure (blue) and silver.

    Okay, so then it wouldn't be proper to display the blue within the strap (what she refers to as a wreath), even with silver instead of gold?
    This is from Lady Saltoun's web site; she is the Chief of the name and arms of Fraser:

    http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/heraldry.html

    If you scroll down, you'll see a banner in blue and silver.

    And the wreath is not the strap, btw. The wreath (twisted silk) sets above the helm, and below the crest.

    Regards,

    Todd

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    Quote Originally Posted by cajunscot View Post
    This is from Lady Saltoun's web site; she is the Chief of the name and arms of Fraser:

    http://www.fraserchief.co.uk/heraldry.html

    If you scroll down, you'll see a banner in blue and silver.

    And the wreath is not the strap, btw. The wreath (twisted silk) sets above the helm, and below the crest.

    Regards,

    Todd
    Thank you gentlemen, like I've mentioned before I'm a novice when it comes to heraldry and I appreciate all the information that you provide to us

    If I do have the banner made of tartan it will be the so called Ancient colors, a little bit lighter. And if possible I'll have the strap done in black.

    Thanks again!
    [SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]T. E. ("TERRY") HOLMES[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"][FONT="Georgia"][COLOR="DarkGreen"][B][I]proud descendant of the McReynolds/MacRanalds of Ulster & Keppoch, Somerled & Robert the Bruce.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE="1"]"Ah, here comes the Bold Highlander. No @rse in his breeks but too proud to tug his forelock..." Rob Roy (1995)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

  6. #6
    M. A. C. Newsome is offline
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    This is all interesting, as I've never before heard it suggested that the clansman's crest badge shouldn't be displayed in color (thought at least one leaflet from the Lord Lyon's page suggests so!), as well as the prospcription agains the belt being blue.

    I have always operated under the assumption that the belt was a different animal entirely from the garter used by the Order of the Garter, and since there was no color specified for the belt, it could be any color that the artists wishes.

    I find it ironic that, when I have seen the crest depicted in color, the most common color has always been blue!

    I also find it extremely odd that if we are not supposed to be showing the clansman's crest in color, that those same authorities would tell us that the belt can be any color other than blue. Are we to go about showing green, purple, brown and red belts, surrounding black and white line art crests???

    ~M

  7. #7
    M. A. C. Newsome is offline
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    Ok, so I was a little suspicious of the fact that there seemed to be contradictory rules regarding this whole color issue, and as the information presented came from "a pamphlet issued by Lord Lyon" that had been "reproduced on electric scotland," I thought I'd go right to the source and look for information on the Lord Lyon's own web site.

    About the crest, as it should be displayed by clansmen:
    It is correct for these people to wear their Chiefs Crest encircled with a strap and buckle bearing their Chief s Motto or Slogan. The strap and buckle is the sign of the clansman, and he demonstrates his membership of his Chiefs Clan by wearing his Chiefs Crest within it.
    Note, no mention of color at all, one way or another. Granted, the information on the web site is pretty basic, and no doubt there is more thorough information available from them upon request.

    The only mention I was able to find about the color of the belt specifically was in the guidelines for the Pinsel, which is the heraldic banner flown by a representative of the chief, when the chief is not present, and this is to show his crest within a belt of the "second livery color and buckle (Gold for full cheifs)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome View Post
    I have always operated under the assumption that the belt was a different animal entirely from the garter used by the Order of the Garter, and since there was no color specified for the belt, it could be any color that the artists wishes.

    ~M
    It is a very different animal, however the clansmens badge was designed using the Order of The Garter as a template. In some of the older designs of the clansmens badge the end of the belt does not loop over the circlet, but through just as the Order. Fox-Davies had some issue with this when he wrote "A Complete Guide to Heraldy".

    Frank

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    About Clan Banners

    Quote Originally Posted by BoldHighlander View Post
    I'm in the process of having a new tartan banner made for our clan booth, and I received the following from the maker:

    I use the Book of Crest for my source and have other artwork which has been provided by the different clans. I have not done a Mackay, but I do have the artwork which is the dexter arm erect, couped at the elbow, the hand grasping a dagger (also erect). The wreath colors are azure (blue) and silver.

    Okay, so then it wouldn't be proper to display the blue within the strap (what she refers to as a wreath), even with silver instead of gold?
    The wreath (that twisted bit under the arm holding the dagger) needs to be blue and white (white is heraldic silver); the arm has to be "flesh toned" the dagger needs to have a silver blade and gold cross guard and pommel.

    The Buckle and Strap needs to be something that will show up well against the dark Mackay tartan as well as contrast with the clan motto.

    For what it's worth, I think the Clan Banner authorized by Lady Saltoun is really the best way to go as it is a far better display of "clan heraldry" than affixing the badge to a "tartan blanket".
    Last edited by MacMillan of Rathdown; 23rd February 08 at 09:22 PM.

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