Please explain...

**Makeitstop** · 7th March 08, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chef

You didn't restate it; you changed it to what suited you by misusing the word resemble. You make the assumption that a Utilikilt resembles a Scottish kilt. I and many others would argue that it does not and was never intended to. The fact that it has similarities is based on function rather than intention. It no more resembles a Scottish kilt than a Ford Expidition SUV resembles a Ford Fusion. Yes they are both motor vehicles and by definition they share many similarities but one does not really resemble the other and no one would mistake one for the other.

The definition of the word resemble:

be like somebody or something: to be similar to somebody or something in appearance or behavior

So it is incorrect to make the jump from

"2 : a garment that resembles a Scottish kilt"

to

"A pleated knee-length manskirt"

because a pleated knee-length manskirt would not necessarily resemble a Scottish kilt. As is the case with a Utilikilt or a fustanellla.

I never said anything about Utilikilts. Technically I never said they resemble a Scottish kilt, but I will now: Utilikilts resemble a Scottish kilt. And I never said they were intended to, nor will I.

A Utilikilt is similar to a Scottish kilt in appearance. It does not matter if it was intended to be or not, that doesn't change the fact that they are similar. And they do not have to be identical, just similar. Honestly, if you can't tell just by looking, I don't expect anything I say to make a difference.

And I stand by my reasoning. If a Kilt only has to resemble a Scottish kilt, then it does not actually have to be Scottish. Take all the Scottish out of definition 1 (which is obviously a Scottish kilt) and you are left with the 4 traits mentioned above, and the words "usually of tartan" which is not an absolute rule and therefore cannot be treated as a requirement. Thus, we have, the pleated knee-length manskirt.

Is it a perfect definition? Of course not. There are no perfect definitions. A perfect definition of a kilt would have to include without exception every single thing which could ever possibly be considered to be a kilt, and exclude without exception every single thing which could ever possibly be considered to not be a kilt. It would have to take into account every conceivable detail and potential variation no matter how big or small. It could leave absolutely no ambiguity in any case or any room for individual judgment. Even if it were feasible to write such a definition, there is no way in hell that we could ever get any kind of consensus on it.

As such, I am entirely content to go with the bare minimum requirement that it be a pleated knee-length manskirt, and leave all else to reason and common sense.

And ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Nothing about the garment itself changes if you call it a kilt, a mug, a skirt or a crotch curtain. It's just a label we use for communication purposes. A kilt by any other name...

**Larry124** · 8th March 08, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Monkey@Arms

Please you guys are making my ears bleed. Chef we know you don't like UKs, no one is forcing you to wear one. Must you continue to flog this horse? They are not Scottish kilts, we know that. Its an American invention, its called a Utilikilt, its different. They are in fact very popular in this and other countries, sell like hotcakes at U.S. Highland games, and many new variations to their basic design keep springing up both here and abroad, but they are not Scottish kilts, we agree. OK?
Best regards,
Jake

**Bugbear** · 8th March 08, 12:38 AM

Ah, I have heard the sound of one hand clapping in the forest by the fallen tree...

**Highland Logan** · 8th March 08, 01:14 AM

Guys, Chef is right. How can a canvas cloth garment with big cargo pockets on the side resemble a kilt? It doesn't, nor well it. It does resemble a pair of cargo shorts however. There are members of this board that would rather wear a skirt than pants. Guess what no one here really cares. The problem seems to be that some of these people do not want to admit that, and would rather say it's a kilt, a traditional Scottish garment. Do you think Suzie Homemaker, and Joe Six-pack don't know what a kilt is when they see one? Do you think the members of this board don't know what a kilt is? If you want to wear a man-skirt, it's great, really... it is. Power to ya... but stop thinking that anyone is fooled by the "it's a kilt, a Scottish garment" line. Show some integrity and "man up" to the lifestyle choices you have made, and stop hiding behind the national dress of Scotland. Here is a quote from the introduction to X-Marks... "This is not a forum for men looking to wear womens clothing nor is it a forum for other types of men's un-bifurbricated garments. If you want to know more about kilts then you have come to the right place!"

Frank

**Larry124** · 8th March 08, 01:22 AM

Is this not the “Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts” forum section?

**Highland Logan** · 8th March 08, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Larry124

Is this not the “Contemporary & Non-Traditional Kilts” forum section?

I did not write the into to X-Marks.

Frank

**arrogcow** · 8th March 08, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Highland Logan

Do you think Suzie Homemaker, and Joe Six-pack don't know what a kilt is when they see one?

Since Suzie and Joe come up to me in the grocery store, the hardware store, the mall, the movie theater, and on the street and say things like, "That's a great kilt", "Where did you get that kilt?", "I'd love to see my husband in a kilt like that." while I'm wearing a Utilikilt (or Union Kilt or RK or PK), the yes I think they do know what a kilt is.

Adam

**Finn** · 8th March 08, 07:55 AM

Okay- I have long liked kilts, but felt that my lacking a clan association would make it inappropriate. Then I found Utilikilts. I liked the look of it (back then there were fewer models). Wearing a kilt for me is more than a simple garment choice. I got more into kilts and learned ALOT (thanks to everyone at XMTS). Then I found the U.S. Army tartan. As a veteran, I felt comfortable with that. My newest is contemporary in Army ACU pattern camoflage. My son's first kilt will be the same. My next kilt could be tartan (USAK German-themed or Thompson Camel), camo (Buzz Kidder canvas), or a UK Workman's. I like the style of Union Kilts leathers & cord, RKilts saffron leather and SWK's Weathered McKenzie & saffron. My wife likes the Hot Topic kilts & sarongs (shudder).
That is why I wear a kilt.

Finn

**Panache** · 8th March 08, 08:46 AM

This thread has finally crossed the line.

There have been several very reasonable responses posted about the differences between Modern/Contemporary kilts and traditional Scottish ones. The Moderators have tried to be open and allow this discussion to continue to hopefuly come to a natural conclusion.

X Marks the Scot is a place for contemporary/modern kilt wearers as well as Traditional Scottish Kilts. We are just as much about about wearing a Utilikilt Workman to a rock concert as we are about putting on Highland dress to a céilidh.

No one has argued that a modern/contemporary kilt ia a traditional Scottish Kilt.

But as far as XMTS goes modern/contemporary kilts are kilts and discussion of them is welcomed and encouraged.

The word "kilt" has evolved to cover a range of skirts for men that are intended/ designed as masculine garments.

Whether or not people can accept this is up to them. What we the moderating staff will not accept are individuals accusing significant numbers of our membership of cross dressing. That is completely out of line and those that are incapable of showing respect to others here on XMTS will be contacted by the Moderators.

Thread Closed

Respectfully

Jamie