bucket shops

[Scotus]

Even in the US most people who are interested in heraldry are well aware that only those entitled to a grant of arms should display them. When a person displays arms not his own, he proclaims to all the world that he has more pretentiousness than sense. These bucket shops who sell people arms that are not their own are little more than rip off artists, convincing people to buy something that is not rightfully theirs.

Sorry to disagree, Gilmore, but I have never in my life heard of such a thing, and I have been interested in my heritage my whole life. I've known others who have had Coats of Arms hung in their homes who have never mentioned such. If I look at the site for Clan O'Driscoll, there is not a single mention that no other O'Driscolls, or in my case Driscoll, should not display them. Now mind you, I'm Irish, not Scottish, so perhaps what you were refering to is specific to the Scots. I would like to know more about where your information came from for further research.

Gilmore, of course, is correct. I thought this quote should be moved to the heraldry section since it has nothing to do with kilts. Anyway, a coat of arms belongs to an individual, not to a collection of persons bearing the same name. A person should not display or use a coat of arms that does not belong to them. This has been brought up before; however, it bears repeating. Avoid the bucket shops that pretend to sell you, "your coat of arms." Birddog, you may look any any good book on heraldry for more information; for example, Boutell's Heraldry, Heraldry in America by Eugene Zieber, etc.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I think people are reading too quickly and confusing two "h" words.

Gilmore:

Even in the US most people who are interested in heraldry are well aware that only those entitled to a grant of arms should display them

Birddog:

Sorry to disagree, Gilmore, but I have never in my life heard of such a thing, and I have been interested in my heritage my whole life

Emphasis added. Gilmore is correct. If people have more than a passing interest in heraldry, one of the very first things they usually learn is the fallacy of the "family name coat of arms" myth.

However, people can be very interested in their heritage and not be aware of this fact; unless they have studied heraldry.

[macwilkin]

I think Matt raises a very interesting point. As a former genealogical librarian, I dealt with the "family crest" myth on an almost daily basis. 99% of the people who came in looking for their "family crest" were like Birddog -- they had no idea about the "gentle science" of heraldry. I tried my best to educate them that there isn't such a thing as a "family crest", while at the same time being respectful of their interest in their family heritage.

If I look at the site for Clan O'Driscoll, there is not a single mention that no other O'Driscolls, or in my case Driscoll, should not display them. Now mind you, I'm Irish, not Scottish, so perhaps what you were refering to is specific to the Scots. I would like to know more about where your information came from for further research.

A good place to start for information on the specifics of Irish heraldry is the office of the Irish Chief Herald:

http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx

On the FAQ page, you'll find this question and answer:

Can I use my ‘family coat of arms’?

There is no such thing in Ireland as a ‘family coat of arms’. Arms pertain to the persons to whom they have been granted by the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland and to the descendants of such grantees, according to the Laws of Arms. A grant of arms made to an individual extends to his or her descendants of the name, not to a family as such.

Many Scottish clan societies do have such warnings displayed on their web site requesting that members do not display the arms of the chief as their own personal arms.

Regards,

Todd

[sharpdressedscot]

Don't they have one specific to the chief (and I think only to a few others) and then another one for the rest? I think that only works with badges, maybe I'm getting mixed up.

[macwilkin]

Don't they have one specific to the chief (and I think only to a few others) and then another one for the rest? I think that only works with badges, maybe I'm getting mixed up.

The clansman's badge contains the crest of the chief's arms:

http://www.scotarmigers.net/leaflet2.htm

Aw'ra best,

Todd

[Carolina Kiltman]

The clansman's badge contains the crest of the chief's arms:

http://www.scotarmigers.net/leaflet2.htm

Aw'ra best,

Todd

I might also add that wearing the Badge shows allegiance to the Clan Chief (you will, at his request, ride into battle against the English with him) The Chief's badge is in a circle, not the belt with the dangling piece hanging down. In addition, if you wish to do so, you can place the clan badge on a cockade made from the livery colours of the chief, usually the first to colours listed in the description of the coat of arms.

Silante

[macwilkin]

I might also add that wearing the Badge shows allegiance to the Clan Chief (you will, at his request, ride into battle against the English with him) The Chief's badge is in a circle, not the belt with the dangling piece hanging down. In addition, if you wish to do so, you can place the clan badge on a cockade made from the livery colours of the chief, usually the first to colours listed in the description of the coat of arms.

Silante

"Scotty" Thompson has a pattern for such a cockade in his book So You're Going to Wear the Kilt; I had one made in my chief's livery colours (blue and yellow) several years ago.

Any armiger (not just the chief) may wear their crest in a plain circlet (not a buckle and strap), btw.

T.

[gilmore]

I think Matt raises a very interesting point. As a former genealogical librarian, I dealt with the "family crest" myth on an almost daily basis. 99% of the people who came in looking for their "family crest" were like Birddog -- they had no idea about the "gentle science" of heraldry. I tried my best to educate them that there isn't such a thing as a "family crest", while at the same time being respectful of their interest in their family heritage....

Worse things could happen. I have heard a story that the person who told me swears is true. One day a woman rushed up to the information desk at the genealogical library in Macon, Georgia, and asked the person there for her family history, and added, "Would you please hurry? I am double parked."

[macwilkin]

Worse things could happen. I have heard a story that the person who told me swears is true. One day a woman rushed up to the information desk at the genealogical library in Macon, Georgia, and asked the person there for her family history, and added, "Would you please hurry? I am double parked."

That sounds strangely familiar...I remember one patron coming up to the desk and asking if we could "download her family tree from the Internet".

T.

[sirdaniel1975]

Gilmore, Cajunscot, and Matt... I'm right there with the three of you on this subject. To be honest, I think this can be quite the serious issue at times. I'm sure the three of you agree. There are so many reasons why these vendors really rub me the wrong way.

Often, when I'm in a conversation with someone about the Scots-Irish club I've started.. the Coat of Arms issue comes up. In my head I hear "Red Alert!" Then they start to spew out the part where the heraldry display they have says they are related to "blah blah blah" and all that wildly subjective genealogy. It is a sensitive issue with folks for so many reasons.

1. They tell people what they want to hear. "some crazy genealogical relation"

2. They paid the money, so it must be true belief.

3. They sell the same heraldry to everyone with same name.

4. They sell the same genealogical story to everyone with the same name.

5. They feed on peoples desperation to feel like they are someone special.

-----------------------------------------------

If you want to hang heraldry or the like on the wall, join a society that has it's own heraldry or the like. You would be most entitled to display that. If you have a clan connection, purchase a clan crest plaque.

I think Matt said this once here, but not related to heraldry: "This is what I want, and I want it now." That mentality is part of the problem as well. Here's why, like the funny story about the woman who was double parked. People don't want to take the time to do real research, they want someone else to do it for them and be as rude as possible to the poor soul trying to help. They believe just because they tell you their name, that all the answers are a click of the mouse away.

Anything really worth having, is worth waiting for. This is something that people don't really believe anymore. I have taken great pleasure in the genealogical research I've done for my family. I've taken even greater pleasure in helping others with their own research.


Here are some links to other threads related to this subject:

Bogus Commercial Heraldry

Plant Badge

21st century cadency

Family name & Clan

De-Anglicisation of Names