bucket shops

[SteveB]

I volunteer at various genealogical events. I will be working the Sunday of the Irish Festival in Canton, MA this September in The Irish Ancestral Research Association (TIARA) tent. Last year, I was in the tent with my laptop open, patiently listing off some sources for a researcher into their Irish heritage, while a young gent was impatiently waiting for one of us at the table. My inquirer had taken notes and would get back to us with any further questions. I shook his hand and wished him well. Within seconds the impatient gent was in my face wanting a download of his family tree to the progenitor described on the family coat of arms paper he had just purchased at one of the "bucket" tents. I held a silent groan as I saw that the surname, Brown, was on his rather colorful sheet. I was dressed in my Lamont kilt and accessories, with my TIARA badge proclaiming that my name was also Brown. I carefully read the blather on this made up mess, then looked up at the gent and asked if he had noticed that the two of us had the same surname. He stopped for a second, and stated that should make it easier. I then pointed to my bonnet, and the clan crest badge. He looked at the Lamont Clan badge on my bonnet, then looked at his sheet. His puzzled look gave me the opportunity I needed to point out that my heritage as a Brown lead me back to a particular clan crest, which I proudly display on my bonnet, belt buckle and kilt pin. In no way did this resemble what was on his piece of paper. He settled down, and I carefully explained that the Lord Lyon issues coats of arms to an individual and not to a family name. I also explained the trail to truly finding ones ancestors, and to document each step of the way. He went away with a stack of worksheets. I ran into him a month ago at "Hist-Gen" (The New England Historic Genealogical Society), where he was making progress in his research. He has saved the "Brown Coat of Arms" as a reminder of the work it really takes.

[gilmore]

What can be done about those who facilitate these bucket shops?

Sometimes these bogus coats of arms are sold at kiosks at shopping malls, and one could complain to the management. But what of highland games and festivals and others who should know better? One was set up in a tent at the last Greenville, SC, highland games. When I got home I tried to email the organizers about it, only to discover that their website's "Contact" feature was down.

If enough people said something to the games' and festivals' organizers there might be results.

I wonder if these faux coats of arms sellers are a uniquely American phenomena, or are there many in the UK as well?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Bucket shops are alive and well in Europe just as they are in North America. Rubislaw, Rathdown and Plean all noted the "bucket shop" at Greenville, and none of us turned a hair. If a $10 heraldic computer print out gives someone a greater sense of belonging to the wider Scottish community, I'm all for it. Sure, it isn't accurate and it probably is mis-leading, but it is harmless in the great scheme of things.

[sirdaniel1975]

What can be done about those who facilitate these bucket shops?

Sometimes these bogus coats of arms are sold at kiosks at shopping malls, and one could complain to the management. But what of highland games and festivals and others who should know better? One was set up in a tent at the last Greenville, SC, highland games. When I got home I tried to email the organizers about it, only to discover that their website's "Contact" feature was down.

If enough people said something to the games' and festivals' organizers there might be results.

I wonder if these faux coats of arms sellers are a uniquely American phenomena, or are there many in the UK as well?

Unfortunately I fear some of these events organizers enjoy having them at the events like Highland Games because they believe they equate more ticket sales.

[Carolina Kiltman]

"Scotty" Thompson has a pattern for such a cockade in his book So You're Going to Wear the Kilt; I had one made in my chief's livery colours (blue and yellow) several years ago.

Any armiger (not just the chief) may wear their crest in a plain circlet (not a buckle and strap), btw.

T.

Thanks, I just learned something! I know just enough about heraldry to leave it to the experts! BTW I highly recommend "Scotty" Thompson's book, it is a gold mine of information and can keep one from appearing totally foolish! Humility is a virtue

[Galician]

A good place to start for information on the specifics of Irish heraldry is the office of the Irish Chief Herald:

http://www.nli.ie/en/heraldry-introduction.aspx

Interesting threads on this, which I have read with interest. As a note, I have had absolutely no interest in the offers to provide me with a family coat-of-arms, since I know that my ancestors were all Mediterranean sheepherders.

With this in mind, though, I'm just curious. though, how one defines "descendents of the name." Is that restricted to only those who can claim direct descent from the progenitor of a family? even a mythical one?

[macwilkin]

I volunteer at various genealogical events. I will be working the Sunday of the Irish Festival in Canton, MA this September in The Irish Ancestral Research Association (TIARA) tent. Last year, I was in the tent with my laptop open, patiently listing off some sources for a researcher into their Irish heritage, while a young gent was impatiently waiting for one of us at the table. My inquirer had taken notes and would get back to us with any further questions. I shook his hand and wished him well. Within seconds the impatient gent was in my face wanting a download of his family tree to the progenitor described on the family coat of arms paper he had just purchased at one of the "bucket" tents. I held a silent groan as I saw that the surname, Brown, was on his rather colorful sheet. I was dressed in my Lamont kilt and accessories, with my TIARA badge proclaiming that my name was also Brown. I carefully read the blather on this made up mess, then looked up at the gent and asked if he had noticed that the two of us had the same surname. He stopped for a second, and stated that should make it easier. I then pointed to my bonnet, and the clan crest badge. He looked at the Lamont Clan badge on my bonnet, then looked at his sheet. His puzzled look gave me the opportunity I needed to point out that my heritage as a Brown lead me back to a particular clan crest, which I proudly display on my bonnet, belt buckle and kilt pin. In no way did this resemble what was on his piece of paper. He settled down, and I carefully explained that the Lord Lyon issues coats of arms to an individual and not to a family name. I also explained the trail to truly finding ones ancestors, and to document each step of the way. He went away with a stack of worksheets. I ran into him a month ago at "Hist-Gen" (The New England Historic Genealogical Society), where he was making progress in his research. He has saved the "Brown Coat of Arms" as a reminder of the work it really takes.

Well done, Steve.

A tip o' the bonnet to you.

T.

[Scotus]

I don't think anything can really be done. It's a common practice, even though it is not right to claim another man's coat of arms. From an historic perspective, especially if the arms are extinct (the male line died out and no one owns them) it's interesting to view these arms for what they are. When I was a young boy, I owned a coat of arms plaque that had belonged to someone who bore the same surname as myself. The arms are extinct, but only years later did I learn that these weren't "my coat of arms." My grandmother also had a coat of arms on her wall. When most people buy these, it's done in complete ignorance of what heraldry is really all about. Some people buy them to be pretentious; however, this was not the case for myself nor my grandmother.

The bottom line is, avoid these bucket shops and gently tell others that the coats of arms being sold are not "their" coat of arms, but rather the arms born by someone who just happens to bear the same surname. They should, therefore, walk away and buy a new sgian dugh instead.

[Birddog]

I just briefly scanned through the threads, but I thank you all for proving me wrong, and pointing me in the right direction. I guess I have been a victim of the "bucket shops". Now to thoroughly read all of these.

[Beertigger]

If a $10 heraldic computer print out gives someone a greater sense of belonging to the wider Scottish community, I'm all for it. Sure, it isn't accurate and it probably is mis-leading, but it is harmless in the great scheme of things.

Indeed. It might serve as an introduction into heraldry. Or it might just be something nifty to hang on the wall. What does it really matter?