Thought and Ideas

[hospitaller]

oh not...not another one of these 'military tartans' (that are not official) and 'can' we wear them....

if you already believe it doesnt matter....then why ask around and not simply go with your own instinct?

99.99% of the people have no clue what is a kilt in the first place, let alone what a specific tartan is, so the old argument that 'people will see you wearing so and so tartan and assume you've served' is a long stretch.

no offense, it's just that there has been a flurry of this sort of posts lately and it is getting a bit old for my taste. you know, the whole 'unofficial military tartans and pretending to have served' thing.

[Highland Logan]

... pretending to have served' thing.

You lost me here... what is it you are trying to convey?

Frank

[macwilkin]

All right gents...as my good friend Peter K., ex-Chief Stoker, Royal Australian Navy used to say, "We can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Back to your corners and take a deep breath.

If this continues, the thread will be closed.

T.

[Mair of the Tribe of Mar]

Friends,

Let me make myself clear, I personally feel that to wear a tartan of a branch that I had not served would be an offense. I would never think of wearing the Leatherneck Tartan, I do respect the Marines for the service they provide but I have never wanted to be a member of the corp.

pretending to have served thing.

And as mentioned at the beginning of the post, I have no intention of pretending to have served in the army, my grandfather had, and I plan on doing so when I am finished with school. My question was not whether it was inappropriate to wear the tartan, the military branch tartans I have a high respect for. I was asking for opinions if it would be appropriate to perhaps, "jump the gun" if you will.

My apologies if there was any confusion of my intent.

Peace and Harmony,
Jason

[george7]

I think we should hold true to wearing tartans as intended; to visually represent an group or philosophy. I wouldn't wear an army tartan since I haven't served in that branch. Tartan is heritage and tradition.

[RockyR]

Without trying to "stir the pot", I ask honest and open questions... Please try to remain respectful of each other and each other's opinions as we discuss this...

I understand and agree that someone who has not served should NOT wear any medals or other part of the official dress uniform. HOWEVER, does that hold true for the rest of the "outfits"?

If someone is wearing fatigues, should they have served?

If someone is wearing an "US Army" t-shirt or a "Marine Corps" t-shirt, should they have served?

What if their Son / Brother is serving and wearing the shirt is showing their support for him?

What about having a bumper sticker for USMC on a non-USMC person's vehicle?

As an "unofficial" tartan (having not been approved by any branch of the service), where do the military tartans fit in this?

I'm curious where people "draw the line" in these kinds of scenarios... Again, please feel free to state your opinion, but don't bash others for theirs.

[hospitaller]

I was asking for opinions if it would be appropriate to perhaps, "jump the gun" if you will.

My apologies if there was any confusion of my intent.

Peace and Harmony,
Jason

Jason,

rest assured I was not implying you are 'pretending to have served' or anything like it.

Simply stating that lately that seems to be the prototypical excuse or reason people here give for people NOT to wear these comercially made, unofficial 'military' tartans.

You know 'I dont want people think im pretending', or 'dont do it so people dont think you're pretending', and so on.

This is something that has been bothering me for a while, since a personal experience with a totally unrelated item of clothing I was wearing and I got the same attitude by two fellows.

First, these tartans we're talking about are NOT military tartans, as they are not used or sanctioned in any official capacity by any US branch (as I assume you are a US guy living in the US), then 99.99% of people serving DO NOT wear said tartan, and 99.99% of regular folks have no clue what the tartan is in the first place.

Some of these 'service' tartans were created by a kiltmaker, or a fabric manufacturer, a few maybe designed by someone who was in the military, and that is the extent of it.

Something that I will remind you all, again, is that several members here are not US citizens, have not served in any US military branch, and live in other countries so have no attachment or connection.

Just as some folks here in the US wear tartans of isles in Scotland without any more attachment than a distant relative 40 generations ago, etc.

My point and my opinion is, if you want to wear a tartan you have ties to, of course you're allowed.

If you want to wear a tartan you like, unless is legally out of bounds (royal tartans) then feel free to wear them.

If somebody wants to be or feel offended...then it is their problem, not yours.

It's as if someone from Isle of Skye would be offended because a yank is wearing the tartan while visiting the Isle.

Again, specially when we're talking about comercially made/designed 'military' tartans, not real ones.

[hospitaller]

As an "onofficial" tartan (having not been approved by any branch of the service), where do the military tartans fit in this?

I'm curious where people "draw the line" in these kinds of scenarios... Again, please feel free to state your opinion, but don't bash others for theirs.

EXACTLY!

usually the people throwing a fit at people 'pretending to be military' are the ones wearing cammo pants, or military style hats, or jackets, etc.

I guess I'll say it again, unofficial, non sanctioned tartans that were comercially designed/made using the monicker 'military' is something I'd have no problems wearing if it is a combo I like, so far the only one I like/own is the leatherneck.

Now, don't get me started on balmoral hats and morons giving me a hard time because they thought it was a Ranger beret....for gawd's sake.

'all hail the legions!'

[English Bloke]

A mixed bag of opinions there eh Jason? I’ve been watching this thread for a couple of days and it’s interesting to see how it unfolds.

For what it's worth I personally agree with Hospitaller for the reason that the US Military Tartans along with others like Royal Air Force and Royal Navy are not officially sanctioned and are therefore by definition 'Universal'.

I'm ex British Army and I am fully aware of soldier’s sensitivities as well as the legal implications of impersonation but I don't believe in this case it can be applied. I see blokes in my current (non Mil) work environment wearing combat gear all the time because it's practical and cheap (when bought 2nd hand surplus) but I don't assume they are currently serving or have served because of it... (and if they did and it was 'issued' to them, they should have handed it all in when they left anyway, the naughty chaps )

To see someone wearing proper medals they haven't earned, or wearing genuine identifying insignia (not baseball caps and t-shirts) to which they are not entitled, that really would rattle my cage but I don't see how a universal, commercially produced Tartan falls into this category.

I was out in a Pub with a couple of mates (also ex Army) last month and we met a Bloke who was telling us tales of his former military service. We were listening along to this compilation of other peoples bar stories without giving said Bloke any idea we had been IN and that we knew (with our 56 years combined service between us) that for sure he was talking sh… err.. telling lies. What he told us just didn’t tally with what WE knew. We found it quite amusing, if a little pathetic. We didn’t burst his bubble either until just before we left, He appeared quite deflated when he realised he'd been caught out and we departed, laughing at him rather than with him. Hopefully this was sufficient to deter him from Walter Mitty-ing again.

Had he been wearing medals falsely, or wearing kit to pass himself off as 'in' or 'been in' and told us the same stuff, that would have been a very different circumstance and our reaction would have been, like as not, much more hostile!

On the other hand, I’ve seen Ladies of all ages at Remembrance ceremonies in UK wearing sweetheart brooches of military badges and miniature medals (or sometimes even full size medals) worn on the right hand side and I think that to honour those you love in such a way is truly fitting and shows great respect. My sons wear family related miniature medals on the right side at Remembrance in honour of their Grandfather’s service in WW2 (My Father. He died in 1975) and another relative killed in WW1 (at 3rd Ypres – Passchedale, in 1917). They are not claiming to have been awarded the medals themselves; they are merely honouring those that have passed and a 16 y/o youngster wearing WW1 miniatures? Chances are they’re not his! Wearing them on the right indicates, by convention at least that they are not the wearer’s medals. Sweetheart Brooches and other badges like lapel pins, tie clips, embroidered caps etc are not official either so that's OK in my book too. On occasions of Remembrance and ONLY these occasions, I wear my own, full size medals on the Left along with my Beret and former Cap Badge and that's because I feel I can. I can’t think of any other time when wearing my issued medals or head-dress would be appropriate, even as an ex…. (Not that I've still got my issued head-dress you understand... I handed it back in when I left )

Anywhoo, back to universal Tartans. Clearly, there are those on this forum and presumably elsewhere who disagree with these sentiments and see the Military Tartans as out of bounds to most, regardless of any motivation of respect for the service and the personnel there-in, past or present. As a mark of respect to these people, and despite what Hospitaller say’s about 99% of people not having a clue, which they don’t… I suggest if you do decide to wear this Tartan, think carefully about why you want to wear it and be prepared to have a good answer ready if challenged. So long as you are honest and don’t claim to be something you are not, I’m sure you’ll have no problems from reasonable people.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If somebody wants to be or feel offended...then it is their problem, not yours.

A gentleman never gives offense, unintentionally.