Use of "Mac" or "son"

[jrmiller]

Ok,
Here's another question, my understanding is that "Mac" means son of. I sort of assumed that all Scots would have been the son of someone, therefore, why are there some Scottish names that do not carry this. For instance, Scotland appears to have lots of Millers, the last name I would have thought of as Scottish (my father always insisted it was). In any case, why are there no "MacMillers" or Millersons or some such derivation.

Anyone know how this works?

Thanks,

[emolas]

I'm sure someone here is an expert on it and can give a more accurate answer but, as I understand it:

Way back before surnames they would frequently use your profession to identify two people with the same name. If there were two Gregors in the village, one of them would be Gregor the smith and the other would be Gregor the miller. If Gregor Miller had a son, he wouldn't name him "Bob, son of a miller", he would name him "Bob, son of Gregor" or Bob MacGregor.

Also, I'm sure there were a few sons who weren't too proud of their fathers and so chose not to be known as "son of...".

That's my take on the matter.

[McClef]

You also have to remember that the usage would have been more in the Highlands where Gaelic was more commonly spoken.

The lowlanders would not have used Mac as much and many surnames originated with being linked to the trade being practiced - Miller being one example.

Some surnames had son attached to them as a variant but not all did.

And some ended up with both English and Gaelic variants such as Robertson (Donnachaidh/McDonnachaidh).

Here in Wales certain surnames attracted Ap (son of in Welsh) and some did not and some mutated so that Ap Robert became Probert for example.

But the tradition with very common names such as Jones or Evans was to describe the person by their trade such as "Jones the Milk" and "Evans the Coal."

It's a rich area of study.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Having a patronymic surname (a name indicating your father) is but one possibility. There are also occupational surnames (like Miller), locational or topographic surnames indicating a place of origin or place of residence, descriptive names, etc. All are possibilities.

Remember that people did not always have inherited surnames (you bear the same last name as your father, and your grandfather, which you will also pass on to your sons). It's a fairly recent development, and came to the English speaking parts of Scotland long before the Gaelic areas.

Historically, you might have a second name that would give some information about who you were, so that you could be distinguished from others who had your same given name. Often people might use different second names in different situations.

One of the possibilities is to indicate who your father was. "I'm Robert, son of Donald," as opposed to "Robert, son of Gregor."

Another common practice was to give your occupation. "I'm Robert the Smith," or "Robert the Miller." You can see how in some situations this kind of information might prove more useful than who your father was. Especially if you were travelling in an area where people might not know your father.

Also if you had travelled, letting people know where you were from would be common. Saying, "I'm Robert from Glasgow" wouldn't mean a durn thing in Glasgow. But if you travelled to Inverness, it let's people know where you were from.

Some second names were physically descriptive. Robert the Red ("Rob Roy"), or Robert the Long (Lang), or Robert the Younger (Og), would all be examples. The point is simply to distinguish you from others with the same given name.

And you will occasionally encounter names that combine some of these. The name "MacGowan" means "son of the little Smith." So there were have a patronymic name that carries with it not only an occupational name, but a descriptor, as well.

Remember these were non hereditary names to begin with. But over time, when people started to use hereditary surnames, many of these turned into the surnames we know and use today.

[Pleater]

There would also be the situation where a child is born out of wedlock and has neither the father's surname, being unacknowledged, nor the mother's father's, she being disinherited. The church could - and did refuse to baptise such children and they were truely nameless.

If the child survived, and became either useful or notorious then the situation might alter. A person could, literally, make a name for themselves, rather than inherit it.

A great number of old novels made their plots around people who did not know their origins.

Anne the Pleater

[jrmiller]

Thanks guys, this is really interesting!

[Andy HPADC]

Mc and Mac means "Son of". "O'" means "Grandson of". ie: O'Neil.
Generally, the Irish used "Mc" and the Scottish used "Mac". ie: McKay vs. MacDonald. This is not a rule.. but a generalization.

I have my Scottish and English traced back to early medieval times, them being royalty made it a cake walk. The Norweigen invasion(s) introduced the concept of Sir (last) names. IE: When I traced my lineage to before the invasions.. I got "John, Son of John".. not John Hutchinson, for example.

[JSFMACLJR]

Mc and Mac means "Son of". "O'" means "Grandson of". ie: O'Neil.
Generally, the Irish used "Mc" and the Scottish used "Mac". ie: McKay vs. MacDonald. This is not a rule.. but a generalization.

.

It's actually a false generalization. Mc and Mac were used indiscriminately, at least in the Highlands. My MacLean forebearers left the Isle of Mull as McLeans, with not a bit of Irish blood. Two generations later, some of the family had changed the spelling to MacLean.

The spelling of surnames just didn't bide by any set rules. Mac, Mc, M'--these were all used amongst the Highland clans.

Regards,
Sandford

[pastorsteve]

It's actually a false generalization. Mc and Mac were used indiscriminately, at least in the Highlands. My MacLean forebearers left the Isle of Mull as McLeans, with not a bit of Irish blood. Two generations later, some of the family had changed the spelling to MacLean.

The spelling of surnames just didn't bide by any set rules. Mac, Mc, M'--these were all used amongst the Highland clans.

Regards,
Sandford

I too have distant relatives going by the same base surname: Crain which originates in Islay (25 miles off the Irish coast). We have family grave markers which say Crain, MacCrain, and McCrain. I does make it confusing at times when tracing lineage. Sometimes when these relatives moved to England, Ireland and France their surnames had slightly different spellings also.

[piperdbh]

In olden days, a son would often "inherit" his father's profession, unless something happened to put him into a different line of business. For generations a family might be the millers (little m) in town, and everyone knew them as Moe the miller, his son Larry the miller, his son Curly the miller and so on.* There wouldn't have been a need to refer to any one of them as "Son of the miller", because he was the miller (or weaver or tanner or cooper or whatever else).
Surnames which were not occupational were the ones that needed to identify whose son Or daughter, i.e. "Nic") someone was.



*I know 4 of the Stooges were brothers and Larry was their cousin.