Buttons on a Doublet

[Monkey@Arms]

I have different question. Why are there buttons on the tail of PCs?

Best regards,

Jake

[Bugbear]

I have different question. Why are there buttons on the tail of PCs?

Best regards,

Jake...

I can't say for sure, Monkey@Arms, but the discription of a PC sounds very much like the description of a tailcoat or dresscoat with the tails cut back, as has been pointed out. A tailcoat has those buttons back there, and I think at one time they were funtional in some way. I'm guessing when the PC was designed, they put them back there because the tailcoat has them back there.

Yipes! Why am I answering this question.

[Chas]

Hello All,

Two thoughts come into my head. Firstly, JSFMACLJR, when were the Northern Meeting pictures originally painted. They are obviously the same artist, and also obviously not all painted from life on the date in question - so where did the artist get the original from? Or are we discussing a possible 'artistic impression' and not fact?

The second thing is the buttons on the 'tails' of a coatee. They were originally designed to button the tails back and out of the way while horse-riding. Some 'hunting pink' (think red) riding jackets still are made in this way. It is supposedly to do with having a good 'seat' on the horse and not sliding around on extra layers of cloth.

Getting back to point one. I wonder how much of traditional dress as we know it today, was originally dress eccentricity by a few (or maybe just one) influential people. After all, true mass production of clothing would take a hundred years from the time of the first picture.

Regards

Chas

[JSFMACLJR]

Hello All,

Two thoughts come into my head. Firstly, JSFMACLJR, when were the Northern Meeting pictures originally painted. They are obviously the same artist, and also obviously not all painted from life on the date in question - so where did the artist get the original from? Or are we discussing a possible 'artistic impression' and not fact?

The second thing is the buttons on the 'tails' of a coatee. They were originally designed to button the tails back and out of the way while horse-riding. Some 'hunting pink' (think red) riding jackets still are made in this way. It is supposedly to do with having a good 'seat' on the horse and not sliding around on extra layers of cloth.

Getting back to point one. I wonder how much of traditional dress as we know it today, was originally dress eccentricity by a few (or maybe just one) influential people. After all, true mass production of clothing would take a hundred years from the time of the first picture.

Regards

Chas

I'm not sure when the drawings were made. I don't doubt their authenticity, though, as I can show you photographs which indicate the same button placement.

You are right to wonder about "dress eccentricity." Of course a gentlemen went to his tailor with specific thoughts. My evening waistcoats, for example, have four buttons, instead of the more commonly seen three. I personally find the 3 x 3 button placement not my favourite: that is why I asked my tailor to make this doublet up with buttons on one side, as was the standard for the "regulation style doublets" some time back. I can see the case for the 3 x 3 button placement on the PC, as it is a coat modelled after the full-dress tailcoat, but other than for the desire for more "bling" I don't quite know why the "regulation" copies this pattern nowadays.

[Bugbear]

... You are right to wonder about "dress eccentricity." Of course a gentlemen went to his tailor with specific thoughts. My evening waistcoats, for example, have four buttons, instead of the more commonly seen three. I personally find the 3 x 3 button placement not my favourite: that is why I asked my tailor to make this doublet up with buttons on one side, as was the standard for the "regulation style doublets" some time back. ...

The low cut, four button waistcoat is an interesting idea. I'm guessing that the buttons are basically closer and the cut of the waistcoat is, for the most part, the same as a three button waistcoat?

I don't have a PC or doublet in front of me to study in detail or try on, but I like the symmetry of the buttons on both sides. I am working on a kilt cut jacket, right now, that will have buttons on both sides of the closure, but the buttons are next to the edge of the closure. It would be like a two button Argyle with buttons also covering the buttonholes. Just an experiment, and why this thread caught my attention.

[Chas]

Hi Sandford,

I wonder if this is a class / dancing thing. It strikes me that different classes of person would have different levels of dress for 'best'. It would only be the upper classes of society who would have PCs and Doublets in their wardrobes and who would have attended the ultra-formal events.

Now, I know nothing about Scottish Country Dancing, but before, say 1970, I would think that it would have been confined mainly to Scotland. Would it have been possible for PCs and Doublets to have evolved to accommodate a different style of dancing and/or social event? If not dancing, then has there been a change in another formal social activity since 1860?

I don't know if this makes any sense at all and maybe the change was just a normal progression/evolution in the jacket.

Regards

Chas

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi Sandford,

I wonder if this is a class / dancing thing. It strikes me that different classes of person would have different levels of dress for 'best'. It would only be the upper classes of society who would have PCs and Doublets in their wardrobes and who would have attended the ultra-formal events.

Now, I know nothing about Scottish Country Dancing, but before, say 1970, I would think that it would have been confined mainly to Scotland. Would it have been possible for PCs and Doublets to have evolved to accommodate a different style of dancing and/or social event? If not dancing, then has there been a change in another formal social activity since 1860?

I don't know if this makes any sense at all and maybe the change was just a normal progression/evolution in the jacket.

Regards

Chas

I hope you (and Sandford) will excuse me for jumping in here, but the simple explanation for all the buttons is that Highland fashion followed the general trend of mens fashion. It has nothing to do with "social class" or "country dancing".

Dress coats, as we know them, really evolved from the formal jackets worn during the Regency period. Until the very early Victorian period a gentleman's dress coat was double breasted and did button. As dress jackets ceased to be buttoned the arrangement of buttons was altered to reflect this fact.

With the introduction of the "modern" evening dress coat, in late Victorian times, the double row of three buttons made a comeback. This was later carried over to Highland attire with the introduction of the now ubiquitous Prince Charlie coatee.

Because the mass produced PC uses the same bodice as the Standard Doublet, it was easier for clothing factories to treat both garments the same-- no one was apt to complain if their doublet had six front buttons, but customers on Sauchiehall street would howl like banshees if their PCs arrived with only four buttons!

I hope this rather general "overview" has answered your question.

[McMurdo]

Now, I know nothing about Scottish Country Dancing, but before, say 1970, I would think that it would have been confined mainly to Scotland.
Chas

Sorry I just had to step in here, the RSCDS has been in Toronto, Ontario, Canada for over 50 years. SCD has not been confined to Scotland by any means, some of the best dancers I know do not have a drop of Scottish blood, it really has travelled far afield.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The low cut, four button waistcoat is an interesting idea. I'm guessing that the buttons are basically closer and the cut of the waistcoat is, for the most part, the same as a three button waistcoat?

Hi Ted!
The fourth button on a four button waistcoat goes above the other three, which raises the closure about an inch. Usuall, although not always, the wasitcoat has a "scooped" front. Instead of being "V" shaped, it is "U" shaped. Hope that answers your question...
Scott

[Bugbear]

Hi Ted!
The fourth button on a four button waistcoat goes above the other three, which raises the closure about an inch. Usuall, although not always, the wasitcoat has a "scooped" front. Instead of being "V" shaped, it is "U" shaped. Hope that answers your question...
Scott

Ah! I have seen that style of waistcoat. I like the look of the scooped front, too. Thanks.