Re-enactment / historical question

[Tetley]

By the way, I hear it said all the time that "just because the first documented evidence of the great kilt was 1594 doesn't mean it wasn't worn before that date." Which is perfectly true, of course. However, usually it is being said in order to justify wearing the great kilt for reenactments from 100 or 200 years prior to the date in question. While I would accept someone wearing the great kilt for a period of a decade or two before 1594, for the reason stated, there really is absolutely no reason to assume anything like the great kilt was worn in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries.

True, but I wonder just what the progression to the Great Kilt was and how long it took. In all honesty I cannot see that the Highland Gaelic Scot would progress from wearing something like contemporary English dress to wearing something like a kilt. Not that it could not happen that way, it is just a huge (impossible?) stretch of the imagination to see how it could have happened.

A much easier thing to see would be a progression from the léine and brat, something that was known to be worn by the Irish in earlier times as you yourself write, to a kilt. Still, I guess we will never really know.

As for asking a local group, well, it seems that this sort of question can be a bit of a religious issue, if you know what I mean when I say that, and I am reluctant to bring it up for that reason.

Oh well, may be I will just visit and not partake...

Mark

[Dall_Piobaire]

Sure, I know what you mean, but there are groups doing it!

If you were to join the SCA here, they are hugely strict about authentic attire!

Go first, enjoy, get to talk to the guys doing it. Express an intrest and they will bend your ear all day!

[macwilkin]

As for asking a local group, well, it seems that this sort of question can be a bit of a religious issue, if you know what I mean when I say that, and I am reluctant to bring it up for that reason.

Actually, I'm a bit confused by this statement; reenactment units/groups generally are not "religious groups", they are more like clubs and societies centered around a particular hobby.

For example, the Society of the Sealed Knot in the UK is for English Civil War (ECW) reenactors.

Todd

[Tetley]

Actually, I'm a bit confused by this statement; reenactment units/groups generally are not "religious groups", they are more like clubs and societies centered around a particular hobby.

For example, the Society of the Sealed Knot in the UK is for English Civil War (ECW) reenactors.

Todd

Perhaps that is just a British expression. To describe something as a "religious issue" means that it is a contentious topic which causes disagreements, mostly heated, and schisms, possibly violent, in the members of an group that purport to represent the same thing.

It stems from the way in which most religions purport to represent God but insist that theirs is the only way and that the others are wrong often causing wars and feuds in the process.

An example would be the Society of the Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society in Britain. Both are re-enactment groups but disagree on the way to do things.

Another possible example would be the topic of whether or not you have to be a clan member to wear a clan tartan.

Does that clarify the saying?

Mark

[macwilkin]

Perhaps that is just a British expression. To describe something as a "religious issue" means that it is a contentious topic which causes disagreements, mostly heated, and schisms, possibly violent, in the members of an group that purport to represent the same thing.

It stems from the way in which most religions purport to represent God but insist that theirs is the only way and that the others are wrong often causing wars and feuds in the process.

An example would be the Society of the Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society in Britain. Both are re-enactment groups but disagree on the way to do things.

Another possible example would be the topic of whether or not you have to be a clan member to wear a clan tartan.

Does that clarify the saying?

Mark

Oh, yes...and I would add that here in the States, reenactment groups tend to form like some churches...over disagreements in theology, etc.

However, you'll find all sorts of reenactors...from the "hardcore authentics" to the casual folks in "the hobby".

T.

[LANCER1562]

Tetley,

I am a member of a living history re-enactment guild, as noted in my signature. We recreate the court of Mary Stewart circa 1562 and are fairly relaxed as far as being historically acurate. For example: alot of the men in our guild who portray soldiers of the Queen"s military wear great kilts (usually solid black, which was hard to come by in the 15th and 16th centuries), our Guild Master refers to himself as the Queen's brother, James Stewart, Prince of Scotland (James Stewart, the Earl of Moray was her ilegitamate half-brother and would have had no claim to the throne), the woman who portrays Mary is 46 years old (historically speaking, at this age, Mary has been dead for at least two years).

On the other hand, we play whith guilds that are part of SCA and they are rabidly historically acurate. ie: Only the Queen wore purple, the kilt wasn't worn until MUCH later, etc. As has been suggested, go and have fun.

Robert

[Woodsheal]

Talk to these fine folks:

http://www.fireandsword.org/home%20page.html

[sirdaniel1975]

Fashion changes over time for all kinds of reasons. Many things contribute to the reasons for people whom wear what it is what they wear...

From W.H Murray's "Rob Roy MacGregor" Chap 3 The Barefoot Years 1673-1684 page 31:

Section on Spring

"The Springs came late, for Scotland was suffering an oscillation of climate that had brought the greatest cold since the Ice Age. It reached the worst between 1550 and 1700 with a vast expansion of Arctic pack ice. The sea-temperatures off Scotland in Winter slumped to 3°C (5° below present).

copyright is from 1982

Not saying this is the reason for the belted plaid, but I'm sure it is a major contribution to the use.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

True, but I wonder just what the progression to the Great Kilt was and how long it took. In all honesty I cannot see that the Highland Gaelic Scot would progress from wearing something like contemporary English dress to wearing something like a kilt. Not that it could not happen that way, it is just a huge (impossible?) stretch of the imagination to see how it could have happened.

A much easier thing to see would be a progression from the léine and brat, something that was known to be worn by the Irish in earlier times as you yourself write, to a kilt. Still, I guess we will never really know.

I never said that Highland Scots went from wearing English-style clothing to wearing the feilidh-mor. What I said was that in the period you are looking at (14th and 15th centuries), Lowland (English speaking) scots would have dressed like their English contemporaries, while Highland (Gaelic speaking) Scots would have dressed like their Irish contemporaries, which is where we find the leine and brat. It is this fashion that would later give rise to the feilidh-mor, and the first evidence we have of that is in 1594.

I'll only point out that we do have several different references describing what the Highland Gaels wore from the first half of the sixteenth century and none of them mention anything that might be considered an early feilidh-mor. So, going by the evidence we have (which is all we can go by, really), I'd feel fairly confidant saying that the feilidh-mor was not worn in the first half of the 1500s.

So if one is doing reenactment, I can see how wearing the feilidh-mor for, say, a 1580s impression or even 1570s might be justified. But not 1540s. And certainly not 1400's. This was the point I was trying to make.

As for asking a local group, well, it seems that this sort of question can be a bit of a religious issue, if you know what I mean when I say that, and I am reluctant to bring it up for that reason.

Oh well, may be I will just visit and not partake...

Mark

You haven't really posted that many details about the group that you would be reenacting with, so maybe there is something I'm not seeing. But it seems to me that if one of the members has invited you to participate and you don't want or are not able to invest in the proper clothing, they should not be offended if you ask if there might be anything they could loan you for the occasion. I know a lot of reenactment groups keep a loaner stock on hand for folks coming out the first time.

[gilmore]

...What I said was that in the period you are looking at (14th and 15th centuries), Lowland (English speaking) scots would have dressed like their English contemporaries, while Highland (Gaelic speaking) Scots would have dressed like their Irish contemporaries, which is where we find the leine and brat. ...

I would think that those living in the Lowlands at that time would be quick to tell you that they spoke Scots (or Lallans), not English.