craftsmen/artisans vs Cheap goods

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

MOR,

Spot on, as always. I have a quick and dirty gauge for deciding standards however--I think we let history and tradition set those standards, always with an eye towards the betterment of the individual and the society from which he springs.

Never, ever, let "filthy lucre" and the vulgarians even have a say.

Well, of course, I agree. I would view your gauge as timeless and shining, especially when compared to the slimy dipstick wielded by the oafs of instant gratification. The problem is that the Vulgarians have managed to convince the Ignoratti that defining civilized behavior (and thus the concepts of civilization) should be an exercise in populist participatory democracy. In their view the highest expression of a civilized society is the ability to vote for free ice-cream and circuses-- and they do.

We have, perhaps, reached a "Homer Simpson" moment in the development of western civilization.

[Larry124]

The boons of civilization are so noisily cried up by sentimentalists that we are all apt to overlook its disadvantages. Intrinsically, it is a mere device for regimenting men. Its perfect symbol is the goose-step. The most civilized man is simply that man who has been most successful in caging and harnessing his honest and natural instincts - that is, the man who has done most cruel violence to his own ego in the interest of the commonweal.
H.L. Mencken

[DWFII]

Mencken was contemptuous of, and felt superior to, nearly every person and aspect of human existence. It's better to ignore such people, IMO.

More to the point...and to the topic...H.L Mencken also said

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

Which kind of puts the first quote in perspective, doesn't it?

But speaking of quotes...and perhaps as a welcome foil to Mencken...I heard something on the radio yesterday that startled me. It comes from Melville's Moby Dick...

The cook of the Pequod, Fleece, delivers a sermon to a school of sharks feeding on the offal that has been thrown overboard. When it is all gone they turn on each other. He tells them that the only difference between sharks and angels is that angels have learned to control their baser impulses. If sharks would learn to control themselves they too could be angels. In the end Fleece turns away in disgust because he knows that what he is asking of the sharks is impossible.

Perhaps expecting human beings to be different than sharks is also impossible but a feeding frenzy is hardly civilized behaviour...Mencken notwithstanding.

[Highland Logan]

civilization will be pulled down by the vulgarians, the gum chewing mouth breathers...

We used to call them oxygen thieves!

Frank

[Old Hippie]

Given the different back grounds of the people here, I wanted to hear some of your thoughts and opinions on this topic.

Twenty years ago I was given a piece of a type of steel I'd never used before, by a steel company rep, to see if I'd like to start using it for some knives.

I was in need of a sgian dubh, and it was about that much steel to start with, so I whacked out a really fast full-tang blade, did some simple file work from the choil all the way up and down the tang edges and down the spine, had it custom hardened to Rc 57, and dug some scrap water-buffalo horn out of the bin to use for handle scales.

Then I beat the absolute hell out of that knife to see how tough it was. I used it to split firewood, I cut wire with it, I used it for a prybar, for a screwdriver, I threw it, I dropped it, I really let go and did all the stuff you're not EVER supposed to do with a knife. I even used it once in the field to cut a bolt to length, hammering the blade through the bolt with a truck bumper for an anvil. (That notched the blade a little but it honed right out...)

After all the abuse, I just started carrying it in a simple sheath as my regular "side knife" and I still use it regularly but treat it with respect. I've often said that if I'd known how tough it was gonna be I'd have taken a lot more time on it. I've got some bubinga that I'm going to cut into scales and re-haft it for carry as a sgian should be carried. It's earned that ease by long and faithful service.

I've bought a number of items from true craftspeople over the years. They always seem hung up on the fact that their work costs a lot of money. My attitude is: "You are a craftsperson. I appreciate your product. I believe it is worth whatever you ask for it. Tell me what that is, proudly, and I will find a way to meet your price." I don't quibble or bargain.

If it's more than I can pay, I may ask to pay in installments, with delivery only after all monies are received. Once I have the item I'm going to use it. I will treat it with absolute respect and not abuse it, but I also look for items that are built to withstand the vicissitudes of life.

Perhaps the most important task for anyone is to learn to recognize quality, rather than to be someone who, as my mother used to say "knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."

:ootd:

[davedove]

I think it's as much about convenience, or instant gratification, as it is about cost and quality. Almost everyone will agree that real home cooking is superior to most of what you'll get in restaurants. But how many of us, myself included, don't want to take the time or effort to cook our own meals. I am a very good cook, but I often just don't want to put forth the effort to get the groceries, prepare the meal, and clean up afterwards.

The same is true of a lot of other things. I can do them, but I don't have the patience to do it myself.

Not, this isn't an absolute. There are some things I could do, but I know someone else will do much better job. And it depends on the product. The pack of underwear from Walmart will suit me just fine, but I will pay and wait for a kilt.

Now, I consider myself an educated and thoughtful man, so I do know the differences in quality and price. But, I am as much a member of the consumer society as anyone. I too tend to look at price first, but it's not the only thing I look at.

[Chas]

Before people can value things, they need to know how to value people. If a person cannot respect the maker, how can they be expected to respect the product?

As a child I learnt that there were people that I called Sir; there were others that I called Mr Johnson; then there were others that I called George and finally there were those that I called Oi You.

There seems nowadays the be a generation which only knows how to say Oi You.

Regards

Chas