Tartan-wearing conventions among Scots

[Urchurdan]

I've heard that one too. I suppose that's my waistcoat "oot the windae" then -



but at least I'm not wearing a tartan tie so that will be OK.



I wonder if you were wearing trainers with a business suit(that's if you wear one of course) whether these people would feel it appropriate to mention them. Do you think there is something about putting on a kilt that opens you up to critical comments like that?

Thats one braw weskitt Phil...Smashing, I don't wear business suits, and I do wear the kilt to funerals, and I have to admit I do wear black hose to funerals, but not exclusively to them, I wear what looks right with the other accessories I am wearing. Convention is fine, and has its place - but you have to enjoy wearing the kilt, or why bother otherwise, we could all put on breeks and join the horde of lookalikes.

[Ancienne Alliance]

Just imagine a black kilt and waistcoat (Dark Island ; Dark Shadow etc. or solid black) add a Doublet or Crail, black of course... Then charcoal or black shirt and hose.

Finally, you top it off with a tartan tie and flashes to match (but in solid color).


Can you picture it ?

I'm convinced this would be incredibly "dressy".

Refined . Elegant. First class.


Best,

Robert

[gilmore]

OK...I'm going to ask a newbie question here. Is there a good resource out there to research surnames as they relate to clan affiliations. It is my understanding that my surname is of English origins...Bavis now, but originally perhaps Baevis or something similar. It's a very uncommon name so I would never expect to find it on a list. There are some other family names (it seems mostly on my wife's side of the family) that I have found Tartans for such as Cooper and Young. I'd be willing to bet that somewhere a Webb (also English) would appear somewhere in a name list, though I haven't seen it as a pattern on any tartan sites. I guess I've already made up my mind to buy kilts that have some signifcance to my career of that I just find attractive. I have plans to get an Army Tartan kilt at some point...but I just recently put a downpayment on a Young Tartan kilt that has a combination of my specific Army branch colors in the weave. Should I be shunned for wanting to wear a kilt if I can't verify any Scottish heritage??

I doubt you would be shunned, but you might wind up kicking your own self for not waiting a few years (or weeks or months) until you discover a solid clan connection. I have relatives who have spent hundreds on kilts, kilt pins, clan crests, even clan crest tattooes only to discover that we are not affiliated with the clan they thought we were.

Also, the lists of alleged septs are notoriously unreliable. Some have surnames attributed to several different clans, some have surnames that are more likely to be English or Irish, etc. Many of these sept lists were put together by tartan manufacturers and kilt merchants more interested in profit than acuracy.

There are only two ways to discover which, if any, clan you are associated with. One is genealogical research. The other might be through DNA testing. See www.familytreedna.com for their FAQ.

To me, the tartan is just a statement of that, for better or for worse.

[JRB]

...I have had an elderly gentleman ask me if I didn't know I shouldn't wear a tartan tie with a kilt, the rule being no tartan above the waist with a kilt...

Ha, ha, ha...obviously that gentleman never saw paintings of 18th and 19th century highland Scots with their multitude of tartans from head to toe.

[O'Callaghan]

I doubt you would be shunned, but you might wind up kicking your own self for not waiting a few years (or weeks or months) until you discover a solid clan connection. I have relatives who have spent hundreds on kilts, kilt pins, clan crests, even clan crest tattooes only to discover that we are not affiliated with the clan they thought we were.

Also, the lists of alleged septs are notoriously unreliable. Some have surnames attributed to several different clans, some have surnames that are more likely to be English or Irish, etc. Many of these sept lists were put together by tartan manufacturers and kilt merchants more interested in profit than acuracy.

There are only two ways to discover which, if any, clan you are associated with. One is genealogical research. The other might be through DNA testing. See www.familytreedna.com for their FAQ.

To me, the tartan is just a statement of that, for better or for worse.

One reason some names are on multiple sept lists is that people of that name in different geographical areas may have been affiliated with different clans. Genealogical research is then necessary to determine where your ancestors came from before you can determine the clan.

Many lowland names are also found on the English side of the border, for the good reason that the border is well South of the ethnic divide between the highlanders and everyone else. Again, genealogical research may find that your ancestors lived in Scotland or not. If you can't find such an origin, it may or may not still exist, and it's on your own conscience whether you claim to belong to the sept (or even clan, as some clans use the English form of a name), but know that if you haven't done the research there is a good chance they were all Sassenachs (as a Sassenach myself, I can safely use that word).

There is one name in my wife's family tree that occurs in the sept lists of three clans, but as far as we know they were only ever English, and so not a sept of any clan. OTOH, going back one more generation she comes to another name that is also a common English name, but is the name of a clan and which she can trace over the border into Scotland. So that is her clan - Davidson. That may not be cast iron proof, but it's close enough for most people.

OTOH, someone else of that name who hasn't researched it may well be a pure Sassenach! I knew a guy called Davidson whose family had lived in the English midlands for as far back as anyone knew, and I don't think he's a member of my wife's clan. There may be wishful American Davidsons sporting the tartan whose forebears came from Coventry, England.

As for Irish names, there are naturally many gaelic names that occur in both places, and the clans in both countries were mostly named after what was originally someone's first name, and later became a last name. For example, there are not only Kennedy clans in both countries, but more than one separate Kennedy line in Ireland, as they derive from men called Cenneidhe, which was a common gaelic first name. In some cases it may be difficult to determine if a name is Irish or Scottish without research. If it is Irish, there may still be an Irish clan sometimes, but probably not a tartan to go with it in most cases.

[Dall_Piobaire]

Ha, ha, ha...obviously that gentleman never saw paintings of 18th and 19th century highland Scots with their multitude of tartans from head to toe.

Darn it JRB, you beat me to it! I was just about to point that out! It seems all manner of Tartan was worn mix and match!

Of course, all this falderall is do to Wilson's regitster, or what ever it was called, and those two Russian lads, Whos' names escapes me. I am sure that it must have been the taste of the regional weaver that decided what tartan was available to who and when. Then, that would probably lead to district tartans. For the most part, unless I am mistaken, there were no consistent tartan affilations even at Culloden, as they used the plant badge to identify who was who. I believe I am not mistaken that even at the time of this grat marketing scheme, many clan cheifs didn't know they had a particular tartan or, what it might have been. Still and all, it has become a tradition, all be it only a couple hundred years, so I try to honor it!

[BobsYourUncle]

Fun thread! Thanks, all...

[longhuntr74]

Fun thread! Thanks, all...

Agreed...fun thread. I read a very enlightening piece from a well-known Tartan Scholar (I think it was Matt Newsome) on the origins of tartans and the "falsity" (my word, not his) of the notion that all of these tartans are deeply rooted in family and clan connections...in fact they were imposed by the Monarchy in the 1800s and then commercialized by the tartan weavers...post Culloden. I wish I could remember what site it was on now. Anyways...agreed on the interest in conducting more geneaological research on the family roots...but in the meantime, I'm not going to feel guilty about wearing a tartan that I like either.

[ForresterModern]

Just imagine a black kilt and waistcoat (Dark Island ; Dark Shadow etc. or solid black) add a Doublet or Crail, black of course... Then charcoal or black shirt and hose. Finally, you top it off with a tartan tie and flashes to match (but in solid color). Can you picture it ? I'm convinced this would be incredibly "dressy". Refined . Elegant. First class.
Best,

Robert

Robert, I had this very thought in mind when I bought my Black Isle tank nearly a year and a half ago, and have worn it as such at least a couple of times---unfortunatley no pictures. But the subtle black and grey tartan in the Black Isle tank, with either a black argyll/waistcoat/ charcoal shirt and black tie/black or charcoal hose, or the same kilt with charcoal tweed argyll/waistcoat/ black shirt and charcoal tie/black or charcoal hose both look smashing as a combo, very classy, dressy, and modern. Add black dress shoes (ghillies in my case) and a balmoral or tam to match the jacket and you have your kit fully covered head to toe.

If I can ever get around to putting the outfit together for another event and take a few pictures I will post one day.

jeff :ootd:

[MacKay71]

I wish I could remember what site it was on now.

Ablanach.org