The Boars are back !!

[skauwt]

I think the idea is that the piggies will root out the bracken which is choking out any re-forestation. Of course the deer and sheep will then probably come along and much the saplings before they can grow into trees. Scotland for the last 150 years or so has been a playground for wealthy individuals to come and shoot deer, grouse, pheasants, partridge, virtually anything that moves, and the whole management of land has been directed towards producing these species for sport. A tragic side issue of this has been the ruthless decimation by poisoning and other means such as trapping and, of course, shooting of all sorts of natural predators, buzzards, eagles, hawks, kites, foxes, stoats, polecats even badgers to maximise the yield with the result that there is no longer any ecological balance. The elimination of wild boar allowed the proliferation of bracken, the elimination of wolves allowed the proliferation of deer and so on and the proliferation of sheep ensured that any new saplings were quickly munched to prevent any re-forestation.

phil i think you summed up the situation perfectly here, my hats off to you sir ,perhaps one day this country`s landlords will start thinking of the folk who live here more often... rather than the ones who come and visit

[Jock Scot]

phil i think you summed up the situation perfectly here, my hats off to you sir ,perhaps one day this country`s landlords will start thinking of the folk who live here more often... rather than the ones who come and visit

Whilst you both are generally right about the past,although I would argue that the employment of the rural population of Scotland would have been even more dire without the "big estates". It would be a great mistake to ignore, underestimate, or scorn the outside money, past and present, spent on sporting activities(love or hate them) that have and still do help many estates provide much needed income and employment for the local population.

[skauwt]

Whilst you both are generally right about the past,although the employment of the rural population of Scotland would have been even more dire without the "big estates". It would be a great mistake to ignore, underestimate, or scorn the outside money, past and present, spent on sporting activities(love or hate them) that have and still do help many estates provide much needed income and employment for the local population.

your true to a extent but can those locals children who are between 18-30 buy a house that some tourist has bought for the odd visit to hunt or stalk ...chances are no most tend to move to the city's to survive ,alot of the students in the unis and college`s are from the estates that you speak of unless its a estate job which many tend not to want they are kinda trapped in the central belt ,i know this from experience as every course Ive taken in any glasgow college 70% of the class dont come from central scotland at all
even my own great grandfather had to move from kirkhill to coatbridge just to find a job my grandmother would speak of how much he missed Inverness-shire and its surrounding regions how he would always try visit when he could the only job that was on offer was estate work something he didn't want as his father and his fathers father did estate based work
and he was adamant he wasn't going to follow there footsteps
ended up he lied about his age to join the army to get away from the trappings of estate life

im wondering is kirkhill farm anywhere near your home area jock? i know my great granddad was born on that very farm

[Jock Scot]

your true to a extent but can those locals children who are between 18-30 buy a house that some tourist has bought for the odd visit to hunt or stalk ...chances are no most tend to move to the city's to survive ,alot of the students in the unis and college`s are from the estates that you speak of unless its a estate job which many tend not to want they are kinda trapped in the central belt ,i know this from experience as every course Ive taken in any glasgow college 70% of the class dont come from central scotland at all even my own great grandfather had to move from kirkhill to coatbridge just to find a job my grandmother would speak of how much he missed Inverness-shire and its surrounding regions how he would always try visit when he could the only job that was on offer was estate work something he didn't want as his father and his fathers father did estate based work and he was adamant he wasn't going to follow there footsteps ended up he lied about his age to join the army to get away from the trappings of estate life im wondering is kirkhill farm anywhere near your home area jock? i know my great granddad was born on that very farm

No I do not know Kirkhill farm what part of Inverness-shire is it in? The local youngsters still cannot buy a house in the highlands, in truth most of them never could and probably that is how it is going to stay.It is a problem that haunts the rural community throughout the UK. I look at the 800 or so children going to the Lochaber High School in Fort William and wonder what local employment there will be for them and of course the answer is not very hopeful.It has always been the same, only these days the local "big estates" in these harsh economic times can help even less than they used to. What usually happens and this has gone on for at least 100 years, is that the cleaver ones leave the area to make their fortune and then retire back to the area.Generally speaking it is they, that are buying the properties up here and not the English.

[Phil]

It has always been the same, only these days the local "big estates" in these harsh economic times can help even less than they used to. What usually happens and this has gone on for at least 100 years, is that the cleaver ones leave the area to make their fortune and then retire back to the area.Generally speaking it is they, that are buying the properties up here and not the English.

As Jock says, the migration from the land is nothing new, nor is it limited only to the Highlands and Islands. I would disagree, however, that the big estates "can help" as they have never been run as philanthropic ventures. Jobs there have been at the whim of the owners and when estates have changed hands the loyal staff are usually the first to get the sack. Skauwt's great grandfather would probably have experienced this job insecurity and chosen a more certain future for him and his family in the urban south. It is interesting, Jock, that you have chosen to mention the "E" word in connection with incomers buying up properties but rather than get involved in a xenophobic discussion I think we should stick to the large swathes of Scotland owned by mostly absentee landlords. I know those of the English persuasion such as the Vesteys and the Duke of Westminster own huge tracts but so also do (or did) the likes of Mr Al-Fayed of Harrods fame (and Princess Diana infamy), the Dutch owner of the Makro stores, no doubt some Arab sheikhs etc. all of whom can be found here - http://www.whoownsscotland.org.uk/index.php so it is incorrect to lay the blame at any one door.

[Jock Scot]

As Jock says, the migration from the land is nothing new, nor is it limited only to the Highlands and Islands. I would disagree, however, that the big estates "can help" as they have never been run as philanthropic ventures. Jobs there have been at the whim of the owners and when estates have changed hands the loyal staff are usually the first to get the sack. Skauwt's great grandfather would probably have experienced this job insecurity and chosen a more certain future for him and his family in the urban south. It is interesting, Jock, that you have chosen to mention the "E" word in connection with incomers buying up properties but rather than get involved in a xenophobic discussion I think we should stick to the large swathes of Scotland owned by mostly absentee landlords. I know those of the English persuasion such as the Vesteys and the Duke of Westminster own huge tracts but so also do (or did) the likes of Mr Al-Fayed of Harrods fame (and Princess Diana infamy), the Dutch owner of the Makro stores, no doubt some Arab sheikhs etc. all of whom can be found here - http://www.whoownsscotland.org.uk/index.php so it is incorrect to lay the blame at any one door.

Oh come on Phil!It does not matter whether the money came from a Victorian arms manufacturer from Sheffield, or a modern day Russian oligarch the money that was and still is brought into rural Scotland was and still is sorely needed and rural Scotland without it would not be the place it is now.Not perfect by any means, but considerably better than it might be.Don't forget that many of the resident Scots landed families hardly covered themselves with glory during the clearances.Without doubt rural Scotland has benefited hugely from outside money and it still will in the future.Apart from private money being pumped into the rural areas, don't forget the various governments have also been doing the same too and the Caledonian canal and the Forestry Commission are two such examples.Could things have been done better or differently, well maybe,but in many ways rural Scotland would have been an even more of a sad place without outside money.

[Phil]

Oh come on Phil!It does not matter whether the money came from a Victorian arms manufacturer from Sheffield, or a modern day Russian oligarch the money that was and still is brought into rural Scotland was and still is sorely needed and rural Scotland without it would not be the place it is now.

I am sorry, Jock, if that is the impression I gave because it was not my intention. The point I was trying to make was the insecurity of the types of work offered by these estates, regardless of where their owners originated. And the situation becomes even worse when it is a syndicate that is involved where the management is transitory in the extreme. I appreciate where you are coming from, Jock, and I am sure that you are one of the (very) few who run their properties with beneficial paternalism, showering bountiful munificence upon their employees and who are able to sleep soundly as a result. Sadly not all are of that ilk and when any of the few jobs available are lost for reasons ranging from financial necessity to simply not liking someone's face, then, because a tied house is invariably involved, a whole family becomes dispossessed of their living and a roof over their heads.

[English Bloke]

... It would be a great mistake to ignore, underestimate, or scorn the outside money, past and present, spent on sporting activities ... that have and still do help many estates provide much needed income and employment for the local population.

When the farm-gate price of a litre of milk is less than the production cost, farmers have to attract income by any means to stay afloat. As Jock states, it's vital for local economies to be self sufficient.

Farming is dying in this country (Britain generally I mean) in the same way that coal mining, fishing, ship building and car manufacture already have. If we are not very careful we'll impose so many obstacles on our farming communities regarding how they can and can't manage the land they work that they will all be gone before long. Then we'll be importing ALL our beef from Argentina and our milk from Poland (as well as our bloody coal.)

I share your sentiment about the hazards to indigenous species from idiots with guns but there is now legislation and heavy penalties in place to protect the majority of the ones you list Phil... Incidentally the biggest threat to Badgers isn't the posh folk, it's Neds/Chavs with dogs...

If I was a farmer and some toff in a red jacket wanted to pay me for the privilage of riding his horses through my field or blast my farmed grouse and pheasants from the sky I'd bank it. It means I can produce more loss making milk and put more Angus on restaurant plates.