"Auld Lang Syne" Heresy

[highlander_Daz]

Id half disagree with you there Phil, Burns wrote in Lallans which is lowland Scots dialect, how Burn wrote doesnt represent how "scots" speak, I dont know who decided that a borders dialect could suddenly be the "scots language" when the majority of people living north of Stirling speak nothing like that, Im all for preserving the specific way that Burns wrote , but in my view , and its only my opinion which, in the grand scheme of things doesnt really count for much outside my front door . its delusional to suggest a regional dialect that represents only a percentage of how people speak could be presented as the "Scots language" One could suggest that Gàidhlig is the Scots language on that basis, which of course it isnt, as not that many people speak it. just sauce for the goose .

happy new year by the way

[Phil]

Id half disagree with you there Phil, Burns wrote in Lallans which is lowland Scots dialect, how Burn wrote doesnt represent how "scots" speak, I dont know who decided that a borders dialect could suddenly be the "scots language" when the majority of people living north of Stirling speak nothing like that, Im all for preserving the specific way that Burns wrote , but in my view , and its only my opinion which, in the grand scheme of things doesnt really count for much outside my front door . its delusional to suggest a regional dialect that represents only a percentage of how people speak could be presented as the "Scots language" One could suggest that Gàidhlig is the Scots language on that basis, which of course it isnt, as not that many people speak it. just sauce for the goose . happy new year by the way

And a good New Year to you too - and everyone else reading this. Without knowing your background I can't comment on your experience of Scots or Lallans as a language but, as I said, it was the predominant language in south and south-eastern Scotland and would not have been heard in the Highlands as you rightly suggest. It is subject to regional variations such as Doric in the north-east and Ullans in Ulster and nowadays is rarely if ever spoken as a distinct language. It is more usual nowadays to hear it as English interspersed with Scots words but still retains its grammatical differences. You will no doubt tut-tutted when hearing someone say they "have went tae the shops" but this is, in fact correct usage in Scots. Similarly when you hear someone pronounce a word such as "pattern" as "pattren" this again is correct in Scots. I could go on but the point I am trying to make is that Scots or Lallans is not a quaint regional dialect but was once the established language of Scotland both in the royal court and legal system from about the 14th century. Before that the nobility generally spoke French would you believe but thereafter took on the language spoken by the majority of the population. This is not to diminish Gaelic which was widely spoken in the south-west and the western seaboard but the seat of government was in the Scots-speaking areas and this prevailed, just as English has nowadays.

[OC Richard]

About the approach that English is a dialect of Scots, in me referring to Scots as a dialect of English I am following the normal usage in books about language that uses the word "English" as the overarching term for a family of dialects which includes Standard English, Scots, African-American English, etc etc. Yes it would be just as incorrect to think that Scots is a dialect of Standard English as it would be to think that Standard English is a dialect of African-American English. All are sister dialects.

Yes it's true that Scots has many archaic aspects, features going back to Old English (the term "Anglo-Saxon" seems to be out of favour presently), features which have been lost in Standard English.

For example, from the Book Of Genesis in the Old English Bible:

God tha spraec to Noe, thus cwathende: "Gang tha ut of tham arce, thu and thin wif and thine suna and heora wif..."

Now "gang ut", pronounced approximately "gang oot", is incomprehensible to a speaker of Standard English but I would think quite understandable to a Scots speaker.

A side note: oftentimes the words "dialect" and "language" are used interchangibly, but normal usage is that "dialects" are mutually comprehesible while "languages" are not. So if two people can understand each other they're speaking dialects of the same language; if they cannot undertand each other they're speaking different languages. There are many grey areas of course and the difference between Lallans and Standard English is one...oftentimes a Standard English speaker can understand very little.

[OC Richard]

Similarly when you hear someone pronounce a word such as "pattern" as "pattren" this again is correct in Scots.

Very interesting! This is called metathesis and crops up all the time in the history of English.

An example is the African-American pronunciation of "ask" as "aks/ax". The African-American pronunciation is not Standard English, but it is not at all a recent American innovation but is actually long-established in England itself:

And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam in-to a hows and axed for mete; and specyally he axyed after eggys. And the goode wyf answerde, that she coude speke no frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry, for he also coude speke no frenshe, but wolde have hadde egges, and she understode hym not. And thenne at laste a nother sayd that he wolde have eyren. Then the good wyf sayd that she understod hym wel.

William Caxton c1476

(The letter g changed to y at some point, apparently by the time that Angles, Saxons, and Jutes brought their language to England. Then the large Old Norse-speaking settlement in the north east (the Danelaw) introduced Norse words which were similar to the English words but had retained the G. So yard/garden, eyren/eggs, yat/gate, etc.)

Another example of metathesis is "bird", which was originally "brid".

Many Americans pronounce "pretty" as "purdy". Etc etc.

[Asser 1]

Burns...Haggis....Whisky

I love January and for that matter February(can't get all the suppers in in January).

Todd- I agree, with the greats like Tait and Cairney it is quite easy to learn how to do the poems correctly or almost correctly.

Nothing worse than a modern English translation of Burns works.

Here's to the Immortal Memory of the Ploughman Poet, a bit early.