Help with Graham Kilts, sporran and silver dress buttons

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Delighted that the photos have created some interest and may even be useful. Thanks for your feedback.

If anyone has an idea for what kind of value the kilts, sporran and buttons might have so I can hand them over to my uncle, it would be very helpful.

Hugh

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I believe Matt is correct in his dating the kilt to the late 19th/early 20th century. I base this partially on the brougeing to the kilt straps-- this is the sort of detail that would have been found on top-end Edwardian tailoring. As a matter of interest, is there a maker's stamp on the back of the straps?

As far as the buttons are concerned I suspect they may be coin silver, which would account for the lack of a hallmark.

The black breeches are of the type worn by the Court for evening dress until well into the 20th century.

The leather riding breeches are consistent with those worn by Officers and other ranks of the Household cavalry, down to the present day. Similar breeches may have been worn by civilians when out hunting, although in my experience wool breeches seem to have been the norm beginning in the late 19th century. As these are associated with the other items I would suggest that they too are probably datable to the early 20th century.

In fairness to both you and your uncle, probably the best way to establish the value of the buttons is to place them on ebay with a ridiculously high reserve-- $10,000 comes to mind. Double your top bid and that's probably what they are worth. I'd do the same with the sporran, although I suspect that a 50% bump would be closer to it's real value. The value of any used item is what a willing buyer is prepared to pay on the open market.

For what it's worth, the black breeches are probably worth $50-$100, while the leather breeches are worth closer to $200-250, max, based on similar items selling at auction over the past few years. I have no way of setting a value on the kilt-- perhaps a PM to Matt would sort this out to your satisfaction.

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Here is a reply from a costume expert friend who makes period clothes for a living re the date of the silk breeches and useful information about sewing machines! The breeches are also associated with Thomas Graham, Lord Lynedoch through documentary evidence.

"Dear Hugh,

Thank you for the photos of the buttons, they are, in my opinion, contemporary with the 18th C date. Bone was very much used for buttons in the 18th C and probably continued to be used into the 20th C when cheap plastic production took over. Mother of pearl came into common use in the 19th C, though I'm not sure when it started to be used for buttons. Quite often wood, horn, bone and even cardboard was used for the mould for buttons in the 18th C so varying shapes and thicknesses is unsurprising. I don't think the chap in the kilt forum knows very much about 18th C breeches! The drop front, the angle of the seat seam, the height of the back, the adjustability in the centre back, the narrowness of the leg all point to mid to late 18th C. Breeches were worn into the 20th C but not in this shape and would not have been entirely hand sewn. Machine stitching is a very good indicator of date.

Here are some key dates for the sewing machine which may help you dating other items.
1790, Thomas Saint patented a machine to sew canvas & leather it was a single thread chain stitch machine that mainly sewed boots.
1830, Bartholemy Thimonnier (French) invented a machin with a hook tipped needle. By 1841 there were 80 machines sewing French army uniforms
1834, Walter Hunt patented a machine
1846, Elias Howe patented the lockstitch (two thread) machine
1850, Issac M Singer patented the rigid arm & treddle
1850, Allen Benjamin Wilson patented the rotary bobbin (before then there was the shuttle)
1881, Joseph Merrow invented the overlocker and patented it in 1886, the term 'merrowing' was used in the industry.

Prior to the mid 19th C almost everything was entirely hand sewn, by the end of the 19th C almost all the main seams of garments were being machine sewn. The early chain stitch machines continued to be used right into the 20th century. Everything about your silk breeches appears to be contemporary with the 18th C. the only thing that seems odd is the 'velcro'. I've not done any research on the product or its forerunners though from your photograph it looks very like velcro, I suspect that it is a modern addition, though looking closer it looks a bit like a strip of fur. Fur if trimmed very short and attached with the pile facing upward would probably help keep the breeches from riding up a little bit but the knee strap would probably do more - is there a buckle for the strap? The attached file is a scan from a book I have containing line drawings of the main pieces in the cut of mens clothes. This seems to be very close to the breeches you have.

Oh and if your kilt man finds some breeches like this for $100 I'll fight you for them ;-) "

p.s. from Hugh: I have added some more photos of the buttons and other closeups for those interested. The antique "velcro" isn't actually velcro at all but some kind of natural organic fur like material woven onto a linen backing and with a natural grip like velcro!

http://picasaweb.google.com/hughranc...eat=directlink

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Thanks Macmillan of Rathdown for taking the time to give me some feedback on the family items.

I just posted a response from a friend re the breeches which is interesting. Life gets more complicated with breeches, kilts are a much more straightforward business! It looks like we may send all the items to Lyon and Turnbull in Edinburgh for a proper valuation. I don't know yet what that will cost but hopefully the items are worth enough to justify doing that. Depending on how old the gold ring is and with the Lord Lynedoch provenance for this, the silk dress breeches and his correspondence with Lord Melbourne, it may be worthwhile.

Best wishes,

Hugh

[MacLowlife]

HAR,

Welcome. This is a fascinating thread. While I expect your friend may be correct about the age of the breeches, I am sure you recognize the handicap faced when trying to evaluate items such as yours via photographs. And, while I am sure you would never dream of such a thing, unscrupulous people have been known to marry up distinguished documents with run-of-the-mill items and even to forge the documents. I sincerely do not believe you have anything like that in mind and I do not think your friend would be quite so dismissive of X Marks members' knowledge and expertise face to face. He is working with better information than most of us, but I am sure he would be polite and tactful just as you have been.

It looks to me as if you face a difficult situation. If your heirlooms are too valuable, you may be forced to sell them. Perhaps selling them to a relative is the ideal solution. And maybe you have sufficient other treasures that these would only crowd your personal collection. Still, it is always trying to consider parting with one's heritage. I wish you good luck in this (ad)venture.

Please keep us informed.

MacLL

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Thanks Macmillan of Rathdown for taking the time to give me some feedback on the family items.

I just posted a response from a friend re the breeches which is interesting. Life gets more complicated with breeches, kilts are a much more straightforward business! It looks like we may send all the items to Lyon and Turnbull in Edinburgh for a proper valuation. I don't know yet what that will cost but hopefully the items are worth enough to justify doing that. Depending on how old the gold ring is and with the Lord Lynedoch provenance for this, the silk dress breeches and his correspondence with Lord Melbourne, it may be worthwhile.

Best wishes,

Hugh

Hi Hugh,

As you say, life does get more complicated when dealing with breeches.

When dating any artifact, and that includes clothes, one always goes with the most recent-- not oldest-- probable date. Everything your costumer-friend has said may, or may not, be accurate. However, what has been over-looked in his/her analysis are these simple facts:

1) Black knee britches, often of silk, are worn by a variety of people, even today. That list includes Bishops, Deans, and Arch-deacons in the Church of England; the Heralds in England, Scotland, and Ireland; any number of Judges and those lawyers who have "taken silk", ie: are Queen's Counselors; liveried servants; etc.

2) Items of clothing, such as this, are bespoke-- that is to say they were and are a 100% hand tailored garment, made (at no little cost) to fit a specific individual. Thus, the method of construction will allow for very little variation between the 1700s and the 1900s. That method of construction includes hand sewing, with little or no use of the sewing machine. Style during this period will change, but only subtly. For example: zipper flies will become common after the Second World War. On items of civil uniform, and some military uniforms (US Navy "cracker jacks" for instance) the drop front fly will generally not be superseded by the vertical fly until after the First World War, if it is altered at all. Even today a gentleman ordering riding breeches from Giddings may specify a flap front if that is his preference.

Is it possible that the silk breeches are from the 18th century? Of course it's possible, but in my opinion without seriously good provenance to support that contention-- and by provenance I mean more than the mere opinion of a theatrical costumer based on looking at photographs-- I would suggest that one is probably better advised to err on the side of cautiously dating the breeches to the 19th or early 20th century. Which is what I've done. Whether or not I'm an expert on the subject of 18th century clothing-- I'm not-- has nothing to do with it at all. I can merely base my opinion on three things:

1) there is no proof offered as to the date when these were first worn by the original owner;
2) the method of construction is common to garments of this type made in the 19th and early 20th centuries (indeed my riding breeches made by Giddings in 1976 have a virtually identical flap and lace at the back);
3) As a collector of militaria I have attended hundreds of auctions over the past 40+ years, and have seen similar items regularly sold for amounts well within the price range suggested. It is my opinion that, in the absence of irrefutable provenance, it is better to underestimate the value of an item than to raise hopes by suggesting a value which may not be realistic.

I would respectfully suggest that before you and your costumer friend get in a fight over a pair of breeches at the next auction that he/she might want to spend a few decades visiting the auction rooms across the length and breadth of the United Kingdom to see what antique clothing actually sells for. To put the question of value into perspective, in 2005 the colonel's uniform of HRH Ernest Augustus, 3rd Duke of Cumberland, was offered by Sotheby's for 800-1,200 Euro. The uniform dated from c.1878, included the cocked hat with plume, red coat, and black trousers, sword belt and sash, had full provenance and was in excellent condition. The final hammer price? Euro 1,500.

In any event, good luck in sorting this out.

MoR

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

HAR,

Welcome. This is a fascinating thread. While I expect your friend may be correct about the age of the breeches, I am sure you recognize the handicap faced when trying to evaluate items such as yours via photographs. And, while I am sure you would never dream of such a thing, unscrupulous people have been known to marry up distinguished documents with run-of-the-mill items and even to forge the documents. I sincerely do not believe you have anything like that in mind and I do not think your friend would be quite so dismissive of X Marks members' knowledge and expertise face to face. He is working with better information than most of us, but I am sure he would be polite and tactful just as you have been.



MacLL

THESE BREECHES ARE CURRENTLY FOR SALE ON EBAY FOR $2,950 AND ARE ARE LOCATED IN COUNTY CORK, REPUBLIC OF IRELAND

I wonder if that may have prompted the comments by Mr. Rance's friend?

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Hi, yes I did put the breeches on ebay and no she was not influenced by the ridiculously high amount I put on them. I state in the listing that the reserve is high I do not know that value pending further research:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...STRK:MESELX:IT

As was previously suggested by MacMillan of Rathdown, this is just a fishing trip to see if there is any interest, which there has been. The items do have a good provenance and the family sold Lord Lynedoch's uniforms and other things to the Scottish National Museum and Scottish National Library a few years ago for several hundred thousand pounds. Sadly because this was divided by three and then by seven as I have six brothers and sisters, I didn't receive a fortune but still a welcome windfall. This is some reflection of the importance of Lynedoch in Scottish military and political history. His correspondence with Viscount Melbourne then PM, written shortly before the coronation of Queen Victoria, which he kept discretely in an 18th century (yes!) silk purse, concerns the grant of a higher patent of peerage on behalf of his heirs and is here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/hughranc...eat=directlink

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

P.s. I live in beautiful West Cork and that's why the breeches are here!

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

P.s. I live in beautiful West Cork and that's why the breeches are here!

For those interested, here is a link to a diagram of breeches from 1775 made to the same pattern mentioned by my textiles historian friend:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink