what shirt?

**Brian K** · 23rd February 10, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Daw

My shirts are starched, but the collars curl without stays as the shirt ages. I've got a nice supply of stays, but they are still annoying to fool with.

Hmm...puzzling. My finances are tight so I have only one white dress shirt in a pinpoint oxford cloth and I've had it for years. It's a bit threadbare in spots but I wear it without stays periodically (usually not deliberately - sometimes I get dressed in too much of a hurry and sometimes I just can't find the d****d things) and I have no problem with collar curl. Maybe I'm just lucky.

**EagleJCS** · 23rd February 10, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Brian K

I personally have never cared for the spread collar because I don't think it looks good on me and I am not particularly fond of the Windsor or half-Windsor knot. A good old fashioned four-in-hand with a proper dimple works best as far as I am concerned.

When I worked in Men's Accessories at a major department store (selling everything in men's apparel that wasn't a suit or shoes), I learned there are three basic knots for ties. The Windsor is for the spread collar shirt, as it is a large, squarish knot. The Half-Windsor is for button-down collars, as it is smaller than the Windsor, but - being triangular - will fill the space. The four-in-hand is meant for point-collared shirts, being a relatively narrow, roundish knot.

Which shirt to wear with which outfit was not covered - that's up to the wearer.

**Jack Daw** · 23rd February 10, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Brian K

Hmm...puzzling. My finances are tight so I have only one white dress shirt in a pinpoint oxford cloth and I've had it for years. It's a bit threadbare in spots but I wear it without stays periodically (usually not deliberately - sometimes I get dressed in too much of a hurry and sometimes I just can't find the d****d things) and I have no problem with collar curl. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I wear pinpoint oxford 100% cotton shirts 4 days a week for work. I have 9 in the closet. I use light starch to avoid the fast aging of the shirt.

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 23rd February 10, 11:13 AM

I am personally a fan of the button down collar because it takes a bit of the "edge" off the suit and tie look. Hopefully I won't be shot for this sartorial transgression. (It may be of historical interest to some to note that when President Kennedy was shot, he was wearing a button down collar shirt.)

When I was younger (a dapper 16 year old, to be precise) I discovered the wonders of the peaked lapel, double breasted dinner jacket and stiff-bosom dress shirt, complete with wing collar and self-tied bow tie. Forty-six years on I still favour the DB dinner jacket. Stiff bosom shirts have given way to "ordinarly" formal shirts (the kind that button with studs up the front, rather than one or two buttons in the back) and my stiff wing collars are now universally replaced with softer, spread collars. White tie, in my book, still demands a proper formal shirt with detachable wing collar.

With Highland attire in North America I tend to dress according to the temperature-- if it is hot, and I'm not wearing a jacket and tie, then I prefer the look of a button down collar. If it is jacket and tie time, then I prefer a broad spread collar. Evenings, it is the same-- black tie (or white tie) excepted. Formal is just that-- formal-- and I dress exactly as I would if wearing a morning coat, dinner jacket, or tail coat.

**macwilkin** · 23rd February 10, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Rathdown

I am personally a fan of the button down collar because it takes a bit of the "edge" off the suit and tie look. Hopefully I won't be shot for this sartorial transgression. (It may be of historical interest to some to note that when President Kennedy was shot, he was wearing a button down collar shirt.)

Since Brooks Brothers is generally credited with being the innovators of the button down shirt, we'll let it slide, Scott.

T.

**MacBean** · 23rd February 10, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

It may be of historical interest to some to note that when President Kennedy was shot, he was wearing a button down collar shirt.

I always wondered why he was shot!

**Jack Daw** · 23rd February 10, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by cajunscot

Since Brooks Brothers is generally credited with being the innovators of the button down shirt, we'll let it slide, Scott.

T.

...and, boxy suits.

**macwilkin** · 23rd February 10, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Daw

...and, boxy suits.

Perhaps you're referring to the "sack suit", which has its origins in the US Civil War with the Federal issue "sack coat" or more properly, fatigue blouse?

The Civil War did have its influence on civilian attire, as it was the US Army's four standard sizes (I, II, III & IV) that influenced the garment industry to introduce off the rack garments.

T.