formal evening dress: vest or no?

[Bugbear]

Ted the Jabot is really another step up the formal scale, in the white tie league, and is normally worn with a "Montrose", or perhaps the versitile "Sheriffmuir". I don't think that wearing a jabot with a PC would be quite right.

Thanks, Jock.

I'm having to unlearn some things suddenly.

I think it is time for me to stand back from the formal Highland attire discussions, now.

[JSFMACLJR]

Thanks, Jock.

I'm having to unlearn some things suddenly.

I think it is time for me to stand back from the formal Highland attire discussions, now.

Please don't, Ted! I, for one, value your insight.

[Bugbear]

Please don't, Ted! I, for one, value your insight.

Thanks. It is a little difficult to deal with having learned that the jabot can be worn with any of the formal highland jackets, including the formal dress Argyle, then suddenly several people are saying it is for white tie and only to be worn with the doublets other than the PC.

When MacMillan of Rathdown has told me, directly, that the jabot can be properly worn with either a dress Argyle or a PC, along with the high throat waistcoat, or even an Eton jacket, I end up feeling that I am being singled out for his information, rather than the arguement being taken to him. He has been discussing this, here on the forum, for years now. I know very little about Highland attire, beyond what has been discussed on the forum.

[Zardoz]

Ted, CMcG, I think the bottom line on a lot of this stuff is that there is no bottom line.

While you, or anyone, should certainly take the advice, opinions, and/or photographic evidence from members of this forum into consideration when thinking about your Highlandwear choices, let them help you to make YOUR choices about YOUR personal style, not dictate them. Let the examples here be your guides, not your gospel. Like Jock said, it would be no fun if we all dressed alike.

The question CMcG asked about the PC/waistcoat/belt/cravat etc. issue in his OP is a good example, while there is a consensus about those issues in this thread, one does not have to look far on the interwebs to find lots of conflicting info. You can likely google-up a bunch of photos, various websites, and even older threads on this forum, to support any of the different options mentioned.

[MacLowlife]

I like the jabot and look forward to seeing people wear it, be it for white or black tie, or just because it is so much fun to mess with people ( Epater les Bourgeoises). And, to some degree, a lot of this discussion is like Fantasy Football- we do wear these things, but many of us describe them more than we actually put them on.

I hope I am wrong there.

And wrong is probably what I am about Traditional vs Historical, especially in THIS forum, but I think it is useful to remember that Traditional either evolves or it is merely another word for Historical.

I expect a handy and practical trick is to find a picture of the outfit one contemplates, many of which are above, and to ask oneself "Will that look good on me? Do I like the way that looks?" And there is your answer. We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

As DLP said about my own folly, de gustibus non est disputandem.

[Jordan]

We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

If millions of chav's jumped off a cliff would you follow them?

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

And Ted if you want to wear a jabot with an argyle or PC for anything formal I would say go for it.

Jordan

[Lyle1]

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

[JSFMACLJR]

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

Unfortunately no!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If millions of chav's jumped off a cliff would you follow them?

No, but I'd certainly do all I could to expedite their activity.

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

Jordan

Probably not, but that begs the question whether a gentleman should remove his coat at all (unless it is to offer it to a lady).

Now there are a couple of good reasons for this. Allow me to explain:

1) Until the 1980s the very best dress shirts were made with a stiff bosom. These shirts buttoned "up the back"-- rather like a hospital gown-- with one button at waist level, the other somewhere between one's shoulder blades. At the neck two collar buttons were used: one rather long one at the back to close both layers of the shirt and secure the collar, with another almost as long one at the front that went through a single layer of the shirt, and through both tabs of the collar holding it in place. Because evening waistcoats generally tended to be backless (as they often are today) a gentleman removing his coat in public would expose the hospital gown "gap" to all and sundry.

2) Women glow, gentlemen perspire. And some men sweat. And some sweat more than a pedophile in a Santa suit, which is something that really should not be shared with the general public. Usually, when someone decides to remove his jacket because it's too warm, it's also too late. The back of the shirt is damp, and often there are wet patches under each arm. It looks-- frankly-- gross.

So, what's a guy to do when it gets too warm? Well a guy takes off his jacket. A gentleman, on the other hand, dabs his brow with his handkerchief, sips cool water, and excuses himself to the terrace for a breath of fresh air, or to the gents where he can safely take off his jacket for a few moments and, if necessary, press a cold cloth to the back of his neck.

Yes, I know it's inconvenient, but then so is surrendering your seat on the bus to a lady after a tiring day at the office. No one ever said being a gentleman would be easy.

[Bugbear]

I like the jabot and look forward to seeing people wear it, be it for white or black tie, or just because it is so much fun to mess with people ( Epater les Bourgeoises). And, to some degree, a lot of this discussion is like Fantasy Football- we do wear these things, but many of us describe them more than we actually put them on.

I hope I am wrong there.

And wrong is probably what I am about Traditional vs Historical, especially in THIS forum, but I think it is useful to remember that Traditional either evolves or it is merely another word for Historical.

I expect a handy and practical trick is to find a picture of the outfit one contemplates, many of which are above, and to ask oneself "Will that look good on me? Do I like the way that looks?" And there is your answer. We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

As DLP said about my own folly, de gustibus non est disputandem.

Ok, I'm sorry. MacLowlife is in charge of suggesting the jabot from now on.

Where's those emergancy jabot instructions you said you would post?