formal evening dress: vest or no?

[MacLowlife]

I like the jabot and look forward to seeing people wear it, be it for white or black tie, or just because it is so much fun to mess with people ( Epater les Bourgeoises). And, to some degree, a lot of this discussion is like Fantasy Football- we do wear these things, but many of us describe them more than we actually put them on.

I hope I am wrong there.

And wrong is probably what I am about Traditional vs Historical, especially in THIS forum, but I think it is useful to remember that Traditional either evolves or it is merely another word for Historical.

I expect a handy and practical trick is to find a picture of the outfit one contemplates, many of which are above, and to ask oneself "Will that look good on me? Do I like the way that looks?" And there is your answer. We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

As DLP said about my own folly, de gustibus non est disputandem.

[Jordan]

We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

If millions of chav's jumped off a cliff would you follow them?

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

And Ted if you want to wear a jabot with an argyle or PC for anything formal I would say go for it.

Jordan

[Lyle1]

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

[Zardoz]

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

This is what the backless style waistcoat is for, Plus it has the advantage of being adjustible.

[Zardoz]

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

I also mostly agree with that. I was taught as a youngster that it was not considered appropriate to remove your tuxedo coat at a formal, thus exposing your suspenders, cummerbund clasp and wrinkled shirt. I apply the same logic to formal kiltwear as well, particularly since I usually wear a backless waistcoat.

The proper time to remove your jacket? When you go to bed.

[Brian K]

I also mostly agree with that. I was taught as a youngster that it was not considered appropriate to remove your tuxedo coat at a formal, thus exposing your suspenders, cummerbund clasp and wrinkled shirt. I apply the same logic to formal kiltwear as well, particularly since I usually wear a backless waistcoat.

The proper time to remove your jacket? When you go to bed.

I tend to agree. If I am suited (I don't own formal wear, but the only suit I own is black, so I am not too far out of line when in the company of gentlemen in evening wear) I rarely take off my jacket until I return home.

Two exceptions:
a.) if I am attending, or otherwise involved in, a function where I am expected to help clean up afterward I remove my jacket and roll up my sleeves in order to protect them, b.) if my Lodge brothers and I are enjoying post meeting refreshments I will sometimes remove my jacket. If we dine prior to a meeting I leave it on but a "late night snack" with my Brothers seems to me to be an informal enough occasion to warrant being in my shirt sleeves - especially if the Junior Warden has supplied pizza, wings or something else similarly messy!

I presume I will behave pretty much the same way when I am finally kilted.

Regards,

Brian

[JSFMACLJR]

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

Unfortunately no!

[Jordan]

A lot of people still think that a gentleman does not remove his jacket in public, and there are still a few venues where a gentleman will be asked to put his jacket back on or to leave! Personally, I don't completely (mostly, but not completely) agree with that point of view, but I would rather forgo a waistcoat and keep my jacket on, particularly at a formal event.

I don’t mean not put a jacket on when getting ready but putting on the full kit jacket waistcoat etc and if it’s a little warm removing the jacket and carrying on my merry way.

Unfortunately no!

Sorry my friend but can I ask why?

One thing to keep in mind would be that for most people on the "far" side of the pond a nice day in Scotland is still way too cold by your standards.


Jordan

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If millions of chav's jumped off a cliff would you follow them?

No, but I'd certainly do all I could to expedite their activity.

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

Jordan

Probably not, but that begs the question whether a gentleman should remove his coat at all (unless it is to offer it to a lady).

Now there are a couple of good reasons for this. Allow me to explain:

1) Until the 1980s the very best dress shirts were made with a stiff bosom. These shirts buttoned "up the back"-- rather like a hospital gown-- with one button at waist level, the other somewhere between one's shoulder blades. At the neck two collar buttons were used: one rather long one at the back to close both layers of the shirt and secure the collar, with another almost as long one at the front that went through a single layer of the shirt, and through both tabs of the collar holding it in place. Because evening waistcoats generally tended to be backless (as they often are today) a gentleman removing his coat in public would expose the hospital gown "gap" to all and sundry.

2) Women glow, gentlemen perspire. And some men sweat. And some sweat more than a pedophile in a Santa suit, which is something that really should not be shared with the general public. Usually, when someone decides to remove his jacket because it's too warm, it's also too late. The back of the shirt is damp, and often there are wet patches under each arm. It looks-- frankly-- gross.

So, what's a guy to do when it gets too warm? Well a guy takes off his jacket. A gentleman, on the other hand, dabs his brow with his handkerchief, sips cool water, and excuses himself to the terrace for a breath of fresh air, or to the gents where he can safely take off his jacket for a few moments and, if necessary, press a cold cloth to the back of his neck.

Yes, I know it's inconvenient, but then so is surrendering your seat on the bus to a lady after a tiring day at the office. No one ever said being a gentleman would be easy.

[Geoff Withnell]

...

Yes, I know it's inconvenient, but then so is surrendering your seat on the bus to a lady after a tiring day at the office. No one ever said being a gentleman would be easy.

Well said!

Geoff Withnell