formal evening dress: vest or no?

[AFS1970]

No, it was a mid day wedding and the entire guest list was not in black tie, just a few members of my wife's family.

I have been to two weddings were the entire thing was black tie, and I have to say, there are apparently less rules with modern tuxedos than there are with kilts. The variety I saw at one, which even included no tie at all, and what can best be described as a cow pattern vest, really stretched the limits of creativity.

[Brian K]

No, it was a mid day wedding and the entire guest list was not in black tie, just a few members of my wife's family.

I have been to two weddings were the entire thing was black tie, and I have to say, there are apparently less rules with modern tuxedos than there are with kilts. The variety I saw at one, which even included no tie at all, and what can best be described as a cow pattern vest, really stretched the limits of creativity.

Actually, I believe there are "rules." Most people these days are simply unaware or just don't care.

I am the assistant manager of a small grocery store so most of my coworkers are teenagers. The night of the prom most of them attending stop in so those of us who are working can see them in their finery. Some of them come close to the elegance of traditional black and white for the gentlemen, but some of them look like they're auditioning for the circus, with most falling somewhere in the broad middle. When I try to explain the finer points of formal dress they think I'm the one who's daft. (I only discuss this stuff when they first start talking about what they're going to wear. I'd never dream of criticizing how they look the night of the event - not only would it be too late, but why would I want to run the risk of upsetting them when they are on their way to have fun?)

The hire shops have done for "Saxon" formal wear what they've done for Highland wear, I fear. At least the kids that work for me end up in a crowd of people who don't know any better so they're not self-conscious about it and end up having a great time.

Regards,

Brian

[English Bloke]

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm sure it's absolutely correct but I have never been to a wedding where all male guests have worn black tie post 18:00. I must mix in the wrong circles.

I'm also thinking that the tweed jacket would be acceptable at a wedding as it would do for the day and the night do. Depends who's wedding it is I suppose.

Jordon.
Re: removing your jacket. As MoR explained it isn't the Gentlemanly thing to do.

I have an example if you'll bear with me. When I was a young Sergeant and new to the Mess and it's etiquette, I attended a Christmas Ball. Due to the constraints of floor space in the building, it had extended onto the lawns and under canvas. A fellow mess member's wife was finding it a bit chilly to be essentially, outside without her coat on so her husband proffered his mess jacket for her to place around her shoulders. Very chivalrous.

After the RSM had finished waving at him, he'd landed himself 15 extra duties... (that's day on, day off for a month by the way). On Monday morning he reported to the Top Soldier to request a reprieve as he belived he had only done the gentlemanly thing for the comfort of a guest to the Mess. He left that discussion with his 15 increased to 30 for having the audacity to question the Presiding Member's authority.

These sort of incentives encourage you to keep your jacket on even if you have melted into a pool of salty water on the floor. It becomes like second nature NOT to remove it. Incidentally, the only time I've seen more extras handed out at a dinner was to a PT Corps Sergeant who did the 'Dance of the Flaming Arseholes' across the table tops of his leg. He got 180 duties... (day on, day off for a year!) but then again he did deserve it, even if it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

[auld argonian]

Jack Donaghy sez it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_P7yWnAAd0


Best

AA

[Semiomniscient]

Having read most of this thread, I've found it all very interesting. Now, I feel like throwing in my two-cents.

I think many are trying to match the vest with the coat instead of the vest with the tie and shirt. I think the whole reason this model is shown wearing a 5-button vest/waistcoat with a Prince Charlie coatee is because of the tie he is wearing. Call it a cravat or rusche tie--I personally think it's too messy for a cravat--it would look weird untucked as it would be with a three-button vest.
The three button vest really goes with the bow-tie. This is the classic look for formal and semi-formal wear--and the three button vest also shows off the studs the generally accompany the pleated tuxedo shirt. (I think that one ought to invest the pittance it costs to get some studs for the tux-shirt as it makes it look so much "smarter").

I am not a fan of the Prince Charlie (or the three-button vest)--I don't find the cut particularly flattering on gents unless they are slimmer than the average. I prefer to take my Argyle jackets and dress them up with tuxedo-wear as I think they look better on more people. Of course however, I adore the doublets we see: Montrose, Kenmore, Sheriffmuir, Regulation, etc.

Anyway, I also tire of the "sea of black" jackets that someone earlier mentioned. Obviously, they are easier to match and bulk produce, but shouldn't be striking out to make a statement with something other than a kilt? ;-)

[CMcG]

MacLowlife is in charge of suggesting the jabot from now on.

<snip>

Or perhaps Chas might chime in? Here's a pick of him from the Ferintosh Burns Supper looking grand in a PC and jabot:

<snip>
I think many are trying to match the vest with the coat instead of the vest with the tie and shirt.
<snip>
Call it a cravat or rusche tie--I personally think it's too messy for a cravat--it would look weird untucked as it would be with a three-button vest.
<snip>
Anyway, I also tire of the "sea of black" jackets that someone earlier mentioned. Obviously, they are easier to match and bulk produce, but shouldn't be striking out to make a statement with something other than a kilt? ;-)

I believe a "ruche" is just a type of knot that is tied on an Ascot cravat and, as with any longer tie, looks better tucked into a higher cut waistcoat. Regardless of what you call it, the general opinion seems to be that it isn't up to snuff for traditional Highland formal. More like alternative/creative formal or perhaps a trend? Here is a slightly less scrunchy, black ruche that might be less objectionable though probably still won't pass muster around here:



As for the "sea of black," see the photo of Chas above!

[Semiomniscient]

I believe a "ruche" is just a type of knot that is tied on an Ascot cravat and, as with any longer tie, looks better tucked into a higher cut waistcoat. Regardless of what you call it, the general opinion seems to be that it isn't up to snuff for traditional Highland formal. More like alternative/creative formal or perhaps a trend? Here is a slightly less scrunchy, black ruche that might be less objectionable though probably still won't pass muster around here:

With this I must disagree. Cravats can certainly be worn with Highland attire and while they have generally fallen out of favor to the likes of the necktie and the bowtie, they are still perfectly acceptable and are gaining more favor. Now I can agree that it they may not be considered "classic" but they do harken back to an older style, much as the jabot does. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen jabots worn with a cravat (but I may be wrong, and this wasn't with Highland attire.) Anyway, I think that cravats are well within the spirit of traditional highland attire, whether or not it has fallen out of favor and general use.

[Brian K]

With this I must disagree. Cravats can certainly be worn with Highland attire and while they have generally fallen out of favor to the likes of the necktie and the bowtie, they are still perfectly acceptable and are gaining more favor. Now I can agree that it they may not be considered "classic" but they do harken back to an older style, much as the jabot does. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, I've seen jabots worn with a cravat (but I may be wrong, and this wasn't with Highland attire.) Anyway, I think that cravats are well within the spirit of traditional highland attire, whether or not it has fallen out of favor and general use.

I agree that a cravat can be worn with Highland attire, but the more traditional ways of tying or securing it look best. The ruche knot seems to be a modern innovation used mainly by hire shops. I think it looks like you're trying to hard. I also think it looks a bit sloppy. Of course, since it seems mainly used to illustrate items in the hire trade it screams "I just rented this crap!" to me.

In any event, if you like it and have the opportunity to wear it, I say go ahead. I'm more than twice your age and that probably influences my opinion. Of course I've never really liked larger knots - a good old-fashioned four-in-hand is fine by me. I avoid buying any of the various forms of spread collar shirts just so I don't have to use a Windsor or half-Windsor knot. It probably didn't help that my stepfather used to tie his ties with knots the size of tennis balls. I used to try to talk him out of it, but Dad is a stubborn sort and, well... At present he almost never wears a tie and, while I wish he'd wear one to Lodge or to weddings or funerals, frankly, it's an improvement.

Regards,

Brian

[Semiomniscient]

I agree that a cravat can be worn with Highland attire, but the more traditional ways of tying or securing it look best. The ruche knot seems to be a modern innovation used mainly by hire shops. I think it looks like you're trying to hard. I also think it looks a bit sloppy. Of course, since it seems mainly used to illustrate items in the hire trade it screams "I just rented this crap!" to me.

In any event, if you like it and have the opportunity to wear it, I say go ahead. I'm more than twice your age and that probably influences my opinion. Of course I've never really liked larger knots - a good old-fashioned four-in-hand is fine by me. I avoid buying any of the various forms of spread collar shirts just so I don't have to use a Windsor or half-Windsor knot. It probably didn't help that my stepfather used to tie his ties with knots the size of tennis balls. I used to try to talk him out of it, but Dad is a stubborn sort and, well... At present he almost never wears a tie and, while I wish he'd wear one to Lodge or to weddings or funerals, frankly, it's an improvement.

Regards,

Brian

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't like the rusche knot and it looks sloppy to me. I too use the four-in-hand knot for regular ties and avoid too-big knots that are trendy these days.
I'm advocating for a good conservative cravat. That's all. :-)

[CMcG]

<snip>
Re: removing your jacket. As MoR explained it isn't the Gentlemanly thing to do.

I have an example if you'll bear with me... <snip>

Wow, the military is as strict as I imagined!

I have an opposite example. At an outdoor wedding last summer, the noon-time sun was beating down, the temperature was around 37 degrees Celcius, and the humidity was tremendous because a tropical storm/low grade hurricane was about to blow through. No-one took off their jackets.

Before beginning the ceremony, the minister requested that everyone take off their jackets to avoid heatstroke. With a sigh of relief, most gentlemen (myself included) did. As soon as it was over, the jackets went back on and everyone retreated to the air conditioned reception room. It was nice to get a special dispensation from the presiding authority!