formal evening dress: vest or no?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Not wishing to be obtuse, or contentious, or uncaring of the desires of a bride on her day-of-days, but what the "hired help" wear to the ceremony or the reception that follows has, in my opinion, nothing to do with proper traditional Highland attire.

Pipers at weddings are hired performers and are costumed accordingly. The attire worn by paid performers (and that includes singers and members of marching bands) rarely, if ever, conforms to the expected norms of traditional formal dress and probably should not be considered as setting any standards or examples for the wearing of Highland attire.

For those who may have lost the general run of things, here's how it is supposed to work:

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

BLACK TIE: a black, low cut, waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets. (A tartan waistcoat may be substituted for the black waistcoat.)

DIRK BELTS: worn only if wearing a dirk, and then it is buckled over the waistcoat. A dirk belt is never worn under the waistcoat, and should never be worn in lieu of a waistcoat, except (perhaps) if "dining in" when dress standards may tend to be slightly more relaxed.

FURTHER: a gentleman never removes his jacket in public, especially when at table. He may, however, remove his jacket when playing billiards, or to cover a lady's shoulders should the evening air turn chilly.

And that's it. Couldn't be simpler. No matter what "Fronk" the wedding planner might suggest.

[Jordan]

Not wishing to be obtuse, or contentious, or uncaring of the desires of a bride on her day-of-days, but what the "hired help" wear to the ceremony or the reception that follows has, in my opinion, nothing to do with proper traditional Highland attire.

Pipers at weddings are hired performers and are costumed accordingly. The attire worn by paid performers (and that includes singers and members of marching bands) rarely, if ever, conforms to the expected norms of traditional formal dress and probably should not be considered as setting any standards or examples for the wearing of Highland attire.

For those who may have lost the general run of things, here's how it is supposed to work:

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

BLACK TIE: a black, low cut, waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets. (A tartan waistcoat may be substituted for the black waistcoat.)

DIRK BELTS: worn only if wearing a dirk, and then it is buckled over the waistcoat. A dirk belt is never worn under the waistcoat, and should never be worn in lieu of a waistcoat, except (perhaps) if "dining in" when dress standards may tend to be slightly more relaxed.

FURTHER: a gentleman never removes his jacket in public, especially when at table. He may, however, remove his jacket when playing billiards, or to cover a lady's shoulders should the evening air turn chilly.

And that's it. Couldn't be simpler. No matter what "Fronk" the wedding planner might suggest.

That sounds about right to me. The only thing I would mention is over here military Dining in nights are usualy black tie events and are very strict in what is acceptable and not acceptable atire and behaviour wise.

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

Im presuming you mean PC or other such jackets here but What about a Sherifmuir jacket? Would that still be a white waistcoat or the usual one?
And how about a Montrose which doesnt open?

Jordan

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That sounds about right to me. The only thing I would mention is over here military Dining in nights are usualy black tie events and are very strict in what is acceptable and not acceptable atire and behaviour wise.

My comments only apply to civilian attire-- those in the military are bound to follow regulations and the traditions of the service.

Im presuming you mean PC or other such jackets here but What about a Sherifmuir jacket? Would that still be a white waistcoat or the usual one?

The waistcoat most often worn with a Sheriffmuir buttons almost to the throat, and is largely covered by the jabot typically worn with that style of jacket. For white tie the traditional black Sheriffmuir waistcoat is acceptable, although I would advocate wearing a white brocade waistcoat with this level of formal attire.

And how about a Montrose which doesn't open?

Jordan

Since it doesn't open, no one will know that you are wearing a tee-shirt, instead of a waistcoat, under the jacket.

[Jordan]

My comments only apply to civilian attire-- those in the military are bound to follow regulations and the traditions of the service.

Sorry to be misleading I was only trying to supply additional information for any civvies who would be invited to a military dining in night for any reason.

Jordan

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Sorry to be misleading I was only trying to supply additional information for any civvies who would be invited to a military dining in night for any reason.

Jordan

I thought, possibly erroneously, that "dining out" implied guests attending the mess, whilst "dining in" implied only members of the mess would be present.

Either way it doesn't matter-- you are absolutely right: if one is a guest one should always strive to be dressed properly. In this instance (a military mess night), the waistcoat should be considered an absolute requirement.

[billmcc]

I thought, possibly erroneously, that "dining out" implied guests attending the mess, whilst "dining in" implied only members of the mess would be present.

That is correct for the US Military.

[AFS1970]

A semi related note here, my wife and I are considering going on another cruise. While looking at a cruise forums site I found a growing number of people who think that formal night no longer requires formal wear. All they have succeeded in doing is make me more resolute to wear my kilt to (at least) those dinners.

[creagdhubh]

Not wishing to be obtuse, or contentious, or uncaring of the desires of a bride on her day-of-days, but what the "hired help" wear to the ceremony or the reception that follows has, in my opinion, nothing to do with proper traditional Highland attire.

Pipers at weddings are hired performers and are costumed accordingly. The attire worn by paid performers (and that includes singers and members of marching bands) rarely, if ever, conforms to the expected norms of traditional formal dress and probably should not be considered as setting any standards or examples for the wearing of Highland attire.

For those who may have lost the general run of things, here's how it is supposed to work:

WHITE TIE: a white waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets.

BLACK TIE: a black, low cut, waistcoat is always worn with "open front" jackets. (A tartan waistcoat may be substituted for the black waistcoat.)

DIRK BELTS: worn only if wearing a dirk, and then it is buckled over the waistcoat. A dirk belt is never worn under the waistcoat, and should never be worn in lieu of a waistcoat, except (perhaps) if "dining in" when dress standards may tend to be slightly more relaxed.

FURTHER: a gentleman never removes his jacket in public, especially when at table. He may, however, remove his jacket when playing billiards, or to cover a lady's shoulders should the evening air turn chilly.

And that's it. Couldn't be simpler. No matter what "Fronk" the wedding planner might suggest.

Absolutely spot on! Well said Scott!