wearing other family tartan rather than your own

[BoldHighlander]

hi all as i wear the murray tartan my question is , is it allright to wear someone else tartan just for the sake you like the colors and style of the plaid? is it wrong or do you need permission? any comments. i have not done this yet but ofthen think of it as there are kilts i really like but are not my own clan colors

I'm of the opinion that you can wear whatever takes your fancy (as long as it is not a restricted tartan). However, if you wear another clan's tartan then please know a little bit about it & wear it with honour and dignity.

As for myself, I'm with Ron (Riverkilt) in that since I have a number of known & researched family connections to the Highlands & Islands of Scotland, I'd feel a bit unease at wearing another clan's tartan that I have no connection to.

As I'm very connected to the Clan Donald through genealogy, I find that wearing that clan's tartan(s) is more than sufficient for me.

I also agree with Jock that if you intend to wear another clan's tartan that it would be the courteous (& proper) thing to do to ask permission (rather you receive a reply or not).

I hope this helps in some small way.

[OC Richard]

I'm of the opinion that you can wear whatever takes your fancy (as long as it is not a restricted tartan). However, if you wear another clan's tartan then please know a little bit about it

Good advice, and I always do that, being into tartan history.

What amazes me all the time is how many people are members of clans and proudly wear their clan tartan all the time, but know nothing about the tartan itself. They have no idea that some of our modern clan tartans can be dated back to the early 18th century, that others started out as numbered tartans in the late 18th or early 19th century, that others were invented by two English poseurs/charlatans.

[Tobus]

I also agree with Jock that if you intend to wear another clan's tartan that it would be the courteous (& proper) thing to do to ask permission (rather you receive a reply or not).

I tend to agree that it would be the courteous and proper thing to do, to ask permission. But if you receive no reply, is it still courteous and proper to go ahead and wear it anyway? In other words, why ask at all if the answer is irrelevant?

[davidlpope]

I tend to agree that it would be the courteous and proper thing to do, to ask permission. But if you receive no reply, is it still courteous and proper to go ahead and wear it anyway? In other words, why ask at all if the answer is irrelevant?

A brief anecdote may be helpful:

After I decided that I wanted the wonderful woman whom I had been dating for many years to be my bride, I paid a call on my future in-laws unbeknowst to Jeannie. During the visit I asked their blessing to marry their daughter. I didn't have to do this and I didn't ask for their permission. If Jeannie had not consented to marry me then her parent's opinions would have been irrelevant. But then (and still now) I felt like it is the courteous, proper, and gentlemanly thing to do.

In the same way, you may not have to ask a clan chief's permission to buy a kilt in his clan tartan and wear it, but in my mind you should, if said chief hasn't previously given a blanket permission that would include you (i.e. by surname, blood, etc.). Perhaps old-fashioned, perhaps "unnecessary", but nice and proper by my way of thinking...

And if you don't get a response from your request? Well, I still think that your making the overture is still worth the effort.

David

[Mike_Oettle]

Well put, David. My thinking has been on the same lines.
Regards,
Mike

[Tobus]

In the same way, you may not have to ask a clan chief's permission to buy a kilt in his clan tartan and wear it, but in my mind you should, if said chief hasn't previously given a blanket permission that would include you (i.e. by surname, blood, etc.). Perhaps old-fashioned, perhaps "unnecessary", but nice and proper by my way of thinking...

And if you don't get a response from your request? Well, I still think that your making the overture is still worth the effort.

David

That was a well-made point, and again, I agree that courtesy demands that it should be asked of the clan chief if there is no blood relation. But it would seem to me that the same courtesy should also demand that one wait on an answer. Otherwise it wasn't a courtesy to ask at all. Might as well just tell the chief, "Hey, I'm going to wear your tartan whether you like it or not. It would be nice if you approved, but even if you don't, I'm still going to do it without your approval." That would be more intellectually honest than asking for his approval insincerely.

To put it simply: does a gentleman ask a question for courtesy's sake, but then completely ignore the reply and expect to still be seen as courteous? One might conclude that it's actually more injurious to ask permission and ignore the answer, than to just never ask in the first place.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, nor am I passing judgment on anyone/anything. In fact, my statements above sound more harsh than I intend them to, but I can't think of any other way to make the rhetorical point that needed to be made, and it seems there is a sort of unspoken double standard on this subject amongst people everywhere when it comes to clan tartan wearing. And I suppose it could be applied to asking for a daughter's hand in marriage too. Why ask the question if one is going to ignore the response?

[kc8ufv]

That was a well-made point, and again, I agree that courtesy demands that it should be asked of the clan chief if there is no blood relation. But it would seem to me that the same courtesy should also demand that one wait on an answer. Otherwise it wasn't a courtesy to ask at all. Might as well just tell the chief, "Hey, I'm going to wear your tartan whether you like it or not. It would be nice if you approved, but even if you don't, I'm still going to do it without your approval." That would be more intellectually honest than asking for his approval insincerely.

To put it simply: does a gentleman ask a question for courtesy's sake, but then completely ignore the reply and expect to still be seen as courteous? One might conclude that it's actually more injurious to ask permission and ignore the answer, than to just never ask in the first place.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, nor am I passing judgment on anyone/anything. In fact, my statements above sound more harsh than I intend them to, but I can't think of any other way to make the rhetorical point that needed to be made, and it seems there is a sort of unspoken double standard on this subject amongst people everywhere when it comes to clan tartan wearing. And I suppose it could be applied to asking for a daughter's hand in marriage too. Why ask the question if one is going to ignore the response?

Combining sentiment of several posts, I don't gather that those posting here would wear a given tartan if permission were denied, more that such requests may frequently go unanswered. If you were to ask a lass's parents for permission to marry her, and they failed to respond to your request, wouldn't you assume implied permission, until otherwise expressed?

[piperdbh]

After I decided that I wanted the wonderful woman whom I had been dating for many years to be my bride, I paid a call on my future in-laws unbeknowst to Jeannie. During the visit I asked their blessing to marry their daughter. I didn't have to do this and I didn't ask for their permission. If Jeannie had not consented to marry me then her parent's opinions would have been irrelevant. But then (and still now) I felt like it is the courteous, proper, and gentlemanly thing to do.

Having met your lovely bride, I'd say you made a very wise decision.

In the same way, you may not have to ask a clan chief's permission to buy a kilt in his clan tartan and wear it, but in my mind you should, if said chief hasn't previously given a blanket permission that would include you (i.e. by surname, blood, etc.). Perhaps old-fashioned, perhaps "unnecessary", but nice and proper by my way of thinking... And if you don't get a response from your request? Well, I still think that your making the overture is still worth the effort.

I'm in the beginning stages of a project involving this very thing, and plan to follow this advice to the letter.

[Tobus]

If you were to ask a lass's parents for permission to marry her, and they failed to respond to your request, wouldn't you assume implied permission, until otherwise expressed?

No, actually, I wouldn't. I would assume silence was their way of refusing me without having to do it to my face.

I don't think there is any societal standard that silence means implied consent.

[davidlpope]

To put it simply: does a gentleman ask a question for courtesy's sake, but then completely ignore the reply and expect to still be seen as courteous? One might conclude that it's actually more injurious to ask permission and ignore the answer, than to just never ask in the first place.

If I had requested permission of a clan chief to wear their tartan and he or she denied me permission, I would not wear that tartan.

If I had requested permission and they did not respond to my request I would first assume that my means of communication had failed (letter was lost, email not read, etc.) and try again. If I still did not hear back once I knew that the message had been received, I would not wear that tartan.

Like all good analogies, the one I used before (asking parents' blessing to marry) can only be stretched so far. In that case, the consent required to be married was my wife's, not her parents', so their refusal to consent does not prevent our marriage. On the other hand, had my wife not consented....

By my way of thinking, clan chiefs alone can consent to an "authorized" use of "their" tartan, so they must give consent. Most of the time this is done in a blanket way, and authorizes all those who are "MacWhatevers, descended from, or married to MacWhatevers" to wear the MacWhatever tartan. For chiefless clans, I suppose one would need to rely on the elected head of a clan society or the derbhfine, if the clan was armigerous and seeking their cheif.

For all of you who don't have allegience to a particular clan, but would like to, I suggest looking at this Fraser of Lovat webpage concerning the "Bowl-o-Meal" option:
http://www.clanfraser.org/join-the-clan.php

Very welcoming and I doubt you still have to change your surname!


David