Derrick's The Image of Irelande (1581) & Irish Clothing

**MrShoe** · 15th January 11, 09:10 AM

Matt,

Is your opinion that the Dungiven Costume was made in Scotland, by a Scot for a Scot with Scottish made materials?

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 15th January 11, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by MrShoe

Matt,

Is your opinion that the Dungiven Costume was made in Scotland, by a Scot for a Scot with Scottish made materials?

While it is possible that the trews were made in Scotland for a Scot, it is just as possible that they were made in Scotland for an Irish man.

Once, while discussing ancient Irish dress with Fergus Gillespie, former Chief Herald of Ireland, he pointed out that the O'Neill had ordered suits of clothes (ie: trews) from Glasgow, and that the letter in O'Neill's hand was to be found in the manuscripts section of the National Library.

While we'll never know for certain, the likelihood is that the tartan was woven in Scotland, and that the trews were made in Scotland. How they came to be in Ireland is anybody's guess, but it's fun to conjecture that they may have originally belonged to the O'Niell, himself.

**BoldHighlander** · 15th January 11, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by rtc872

Also, thanks boldhighlander you put in a lot of work posting all that.

Your very welcome!

Since I had a touch of some stomach "bug" the last couple days, it took me a wee bit longer to put together than planned...

Originally Posted by artificer

Terry,
great stuff. I look forward to reading more as this conversation develops.

You & me both, Scott! :mrgreen:

I would also love to see this "Dungiven paper" that Matt & Peter allude too (hint, hint)...

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

While it is possible that the trews were made in Scotland for a Scot, it is just as possible that they were made in Scotland for an Irish man......

While we'll never know for certain, the likelihood is that the tartan was woven in Scotland, and that the trews were made in Scotland. How they came to be in Ireland is anybody's guess, but it's fun to conjecture that they may have originally belonged to the O'Niell, himself.

I've always felt that these trews/outfit belonged to an Ulster-Scot, someone from the emigrant Scots/Galloglass community....however this is just a feeling and nothing more. Like Scott (MoR), I think we'll never know for certain. And also, like Scott, I think it's fun to conjecture

Originally Posted by xman

This reminds me of a Shakespeare quote from Macbeth which is close to my heart.

"The mercilesse Macdonwald
(Worthie to be a Rebell, for to that
The multiplying Villanies of Nature
Doe swarme vpon him) from the Westerne Isles
Of Kerns and Gallowglasses is supply'd ; "

Nice! Thanks for sharing that, 'X'!

I hope if anyone else has Tudor period illustrations of Irish /Galloglass dress, that they would consider adding them to this thread.

**slohairt** · 17th January 11, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by BoldHighlander

Your very welcome!

Since I had a touch of some stomach "bug" the last couple days, it took me a wee bit longer to put together than planned...

You & me both, Scott! :mrgreen:

I would also love to see this "Dungiven paper" that Matt & Peter allude too (hint, hint)...

I've always felt that these trews/outfit belonged to an Ulster-Scot, someone from the emigrant Scots/Galloglass community....however this is just a feeling and nothing more. Like Scott (MoR), I think we'll never know for certain. And also, like Scott, I think it's fun to conjecture

Nice! Thanks for sharing that, 'X'!

I hope if anyone else has Tudor period illustrations of Irish /Galloglass dress, that they would consider adding them to this thread.

Great pictures, Terry!

It certainly is possible that they belonged to an Ulster Scot or a Gallowglass. It should be noted, Terry, that those terms aren't really that interchangeable. Ulster Scots (usually) refers to those who came with the Plantation and were mostly Protestant Lowlanders. The Gallowglass were (usually) Gaelic-speaking Catholics who assimilated to Irish culture with even greater ease than the Normans. There are many Irish with Gallowglass ancestry (myself included) that don't really identify as being an Ulster Scot.

**slohairt** · 17th January 11, 08:18 AM

It's too bad Pearse and co. didn't give the Dungiven costume more thought than they did. It could have been 'updated' fairly easily: a modern military-style trews, a doublet of some kind, and a plaid. Maybe even a Kilmainham or pennanular brooch thrown in for panache!

**macwilkin** · 17th January 11, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by slohairt

It's too bad Pearse and co. didn't give the Dungiven costume more thought than they did. It could have been 'updated' fairly easily: a modern military-style trews, a doublet of some kind, and a plaid. Maybe even a Kilmainham or pennanular brooch thrown in for panache!

A variant of that idea was actually suggested at one point for the Free State's ceremonial guard:

"Originally, the artist Seán Keating headed up a committee to design a uniform in a suitably modern-but-Celtic style, as was the general artistic bent of the Irish state at the time. Keating’s design called for a saffron léine tunic with six rows of black braid, black cuffs, a blue brat cloak, pantaloons, and a black Balmoral bonnet with saffron feather."

-- http://www.andrewcusack.com/2010/04/...-blue-hussars/

http://www.military.ie/army/speciali...it/history.htm

Instead, the Army decided to go with a uniform patterned after the British 8th Hussars -- thus the Irish "Blue Hussars" were born.

T.

**BoldHighlander** · 17th January 11, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by slohairt

Great pictures, Terry!

It certainly is possible that they belonged to an Ulster Scot or a Gallowglass. It should be noted, Terry, that those terms aren't really that interchangeable. Ulster Scots (usually) refers to those who came with the Plantation and were mostly Protestant Lowlanders. The Gallowglass were (usually) Gaelic-speaking Catholics who assimilated to Irish culture with even greater ease than the Normans. There are many Irish with Gallowglass ancestry (myself included) that don't really identify as being an Ulster Scot.

Thanks John.

I didn't mean to imply that the Galloglass & the Ulster-Scots were one and the same. I actually meant to convey "belonging to either or". Sorry for the confusion.

**Downunder Kilt** · 17th January 11, 01:55 PM

Thanks for the thread Terry. As always, you have given us something to think about, and in my case, enlighten me about something I knew nought about. Cheers mate

**BoldHighlander** · 17th January 11, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Downunder Kilt

Thanks for the thread Terry. As always, you have given us something to think about, and in my case, enlighten me about something I knew nought about. Cheers mate

Thank you Mike, and everyone else for your kind words. I'm very happy to do it (& very pleased you all enjoy it).

I'm also enjoying the discussion that has followed thus far!

**slohairt** · 17th January 11, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by BoldHighlander

Thanks John.

I didn't mean to imply that the Galloglass & the Ulster-Scots were one and the same. I actually meant to convey "belonging to either or". Sorry for the confusion.

No problem, brother!

By the way, in the third picture, do you think those two on the very far right are warming their bums by the fire or just mooning the bard?