Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[artificer]

... stuff about swords...

But there is nothing more brigadoonish about wearing a sword than there is about wearing one of those ridiculous "highlander" shirts or whatever they're called, but those are popular enough that even the most respected highland-wear retailers stock them. In fact, we know that swords were at some point in history worn by civilians with the kilt. And we know that shirts like that were never worn with the kilt at any point in history. Interestingly, I don't see the same ire regarding them.

All you need do is hit the "search" function with the term "brigadoon" or similar to see that the feeling is quite similar, and from the same, or greater, crowd.


The only way I could EVER see wearing a sword is if it were part of some "badge of office" type situation. The Knights of Columbus have one, I'm sure others do as well. EVEN then it would have to be a "Full Formal" white tie situation or other very high ceremony in the context of the organization.

Swords are a pain.

Puffy shirts are as well - I couldn't see myself EVER in one of those.

ith:

[JSFMACLJR]

Perhaps you should ask the gentleman whose photo you posted a while back in the vintage photos forum, Sandy. It was a scan, apparently from a book, and the text was too small for me to read completely, but I did glean that it was a clan chief in "full dress," including a broadsword. It was not a military uniform.
.

Kenneth, if you are referring to the photograph of the MacNeil of Barra,

then it is worth pointing out that he is wearing a uniform, Highland Court Dress, worn by gentlemen at levees, State Balls, coronations, and such. The dress regulations are spelled out in publications from the Lord Chamberlain. Gentlemen commanded to attend The Sovereign at Court had/have no choice but to wear what is prescibed by the Lord Chamberlain.

[BobsYourUncle]

Complete and detailed instructions, with illustrations, for wearing a basket hilt in several different belted configurations can be found here: http://drummajor.net/documents/RDMADressManualv2_5.pdf

This is the dress manual of the Regimental Drum Major Association.

While others have discoursed at length, and with erudition, about the advisability of wearing a basket hilted sword with civilian attire, the actual question posed was how to do so. I hope this helps. Regards, BYU

[davidlpope]

David,
This argument appears to me to be disingenuous. You are confusing the argument both with your choice of words and your example. I don't believe the "modern" basket-hilt broadsword is different from the historical version which was carried by both civilians and the military, although I may be incorrect in that assumption. I would venture to guess that most people who are wearing basket-hilt broadswords to events like highland games are wearing replicas of historical swords. So even if there is a difference between between historical swords and the modern one, your point about who has earned the right to wear the modern one is moot. More to the point, though, the basket-hilt broadsword is not at all like the modern officer's or NCO's swords, which came into being after it was no longer fashionable for citizens to wear swords (thanks to the mass production of firearms). The basket-hilt broadsword, on the other hand, was carried by civilians for centuries, so transposing military customs onto its use isn't quite fair. It would be completely fair to suggest that no one should wear the sword you earned as an officer in the Marine Corps (did I get that right?), but the two are simply not analogous.

I think we disagree on this one...

Here is a modern basket-hilt broadsword being carried by an officer of the Royal Regiment of Scotland:

Here are some basket-hilt broadswords in historical styles:


Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations). As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.
2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.
3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

David

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

What I was questioning was the line of logic (as I read it) that stated the dirk and sword were designed for killing people/defense of ones person, but that the sgian was somehow other. I highly doubt that the sgian came about when someone looked at his hose and decided they needed an extra bit of decoration.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

The sgian dubh is virtually unknown in Scotland before 1800, with the earliest representation (Raeburn's painting of "The Macnab") dating from about 1806. By 1854 Scotland, and all things "Highland" become wildly popular with the upper classes. Sportsmen, drawn to Scotland to shoot stag, notice that the stalkers often carry a small knife in their stocking top, which they put to a variety of uses in the field. The wearing of a sgian dubh quickly becomes the hallmark of someone who has killed a stag (in much the same way that the "gamsbart" worn in HRH Prince Albert's hat marks him out as a member of the German shooting fraternity). This "badge of a hunter" quickly becomes a fashion necessity, and within a few years it is not only considered an indispensable accessory if one is to be well dressed in the Highland manner, the wearing of a "Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu (sic)" is required if wearing Highland attire at the Royal Court.

The sgian dubh has absolutely nothing to do with self defense, and everything to do do with 19th century self-aggrandizement.

[Dale Seago]

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

The sgian dubh is virtually unknown in Scotland before 1800, with the earliest representation (Raeburn's painting of "The Macnab") dating from about 1806. By 1854 Scotland, and all things "Highland" become wildly popular with the upper classes. Sportsmen, drawn to Scotland to shoot stag, notice that the stalkers often carry a small knife in their stocking top, which they put to a variety of uses in the field. The wearing of a sgian dubh quickly becomes the hallmark of someone who has killed a stag (in much the same way that the "gamsbart" worn in HRH Prince Albert's hat marks him out as a member of the German shooting fraternity). This "badge of a hunter" quickly becomes a fashion necessity, and within a few years it is not only considered an indispensable accessory if one is to be well dressed in the Highland manner, the wearing of a "Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu (sic)" is required if wearing Highland attire at the Royal Court.

The sgian dubh has absolutely nothing to do with self defense, and everything to do do with 19th century self-aggrandizement.

Dang it, we really do need a Facebook-style "like" button, or the "thanks" button some other forums have, or something of that sort.

[SlackerDrummer]

Kenneth, if you are referring to the photograph of the MacNeil of Barra,

then it is worth pointing out that he is wearing a uniform, Highland Court Dress, worn by gentlemen at levees, State Balls, coronations, and such. The dress regulations are spelled out in publications from the Lord Chamberlain. Gentlemen commanded to attend The Sovereign at Court had/have no choice but to wear what is prescibed by the Lord Chamberlain.

Thanks for the clarification, Sandy. That is indeed the photo to which I was referring.

[Dale Seago]

Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations).

Pretty much correct in my understanding. By The Forty-Five, at least, most Scottish Gael were too cash-poor to own a sword unless they had a hand-me-down.

As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I essentially agree, with the proviso that "not long" may be longer than some realize. The gentlemen of the clans, the "front-rankers" in the battle order, were using swords along with muskets and pistols through the 1745-46 Rising, and I recall at least one instance of a unit of Highlanders using their broadswords in a battle on the North American continent against an outnumbering force of Siberian-Americans during the French & Indian Wars a decade or so later.

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.

Always looks great.

2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.

I dearly love these, as long as they're confining their efforts to a portrayal of how they looked and what they fought with. At various events in California there are always reenactors who seem to think they're portraying how they fought, and I always have to put great effort into NOT going out onto the field and smacking them around to give them a sense of the ways in which they're leaving themselves open.

3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

See my above comment pertaining to smacking around.

By the way, in the photo of the swords & dirks, the second dirk down looks like Vince & Grace Evans' work (she does the handle carving). . .the backsword with the browned-steel basket looks Vince-ish to me too. Really sweet!!!

[Bigkahuna]

"Siberian-Americans". That's one I haven't heard before.

[Dale Seago]

"Siberian-Americans". That's one I haven't heard before.

I figure I can get away with that: Despite my appearance my ancestry includes Cherokee, Comanche, Lakota, and southern Canadian Cree. And my late paternal aunt, Seago Blackstar Whitewolf, was (as far as I know) the last traditional Comanche medicine woman.