Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[Dale Seago]

And my late paternal aunt, Seago Blackstar Whitewolf, was (as far as I know) the last traditional Comanche medicine woman.

Postscript: She was helping Steve Seagal with some medical stuff before his divorce (dropped him when he started doing his babysitter) and consulted on this movie, in which she has a cameo appearance and is mentioned as one of the "medicine persons" in the credits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Deadly_Ground

[Bugbear]

Post deleted, off topic.

[macwilkin]

I essentially agree, with the proviso that "not long" may be longer than some realize. The gentlemen of the clans, the "front-rankers" in the battle order, were using swords along with muskets and pistols through the 1745-46 Rising, and I recall at least one instance of a unit of Highlanders using their broadswords in a battle on the North American continent against an outnumbering force of Siberian-Americans during the French & Indian Wars a decade or so later.

Are you thinking of Bushy Run? Your description sounds more like Moore's Creek Bridge, when Highland Loyalists charged a line of North Carolina Scots-Irish patriots with the cry, "King George & Broadswords!"

T.

[Dale Seago]

Are you thinking of Bushy Run?

Yes, I was, wherefore: Oops!! Pontiac's Rebellion, just months after the F & I War, in 1763. That's even later than I'd been thinking.

[Drac]

A question on the functionality of the sgian dubh.

In the US as recent as my Dad's generation it was common for everyone to carry a small knife for everyday use. Even to school. I even work with people who feel undressed for not carrying a small folding knife or a buck on their hip. Work in Coorporate America...

Was this the case in Scotland? I would think that the design of the sgian lends itself to a EDC (everyday carry in knife speak).

Jim

[Dale Seago]

In the US as recent as my Dad's generation it was common for everyone to carry a small knife for everyday use. Even to school.

I did, from the time I was 8 years old; still do.

Was this the case in Scotland? I would think that the design of the sgian lends itself to a EDC (everyday carry in knife speak).

I'd like to know too.

Today there could very well be legal issues. For example, in California where I live the sgian would HAVE to be carried with the handle visible in the top of the stocking because, under state law, despite its diminutive size it is a "dirk or dagger" and a felony to carry concealed.

On the other hand, I can legally carry a one-hand-opening, locking-blade folder with a blade the same length as the sgian completely out of sight in my sporran with no problem, because the pertinent statute's wording makes it "not a 'dirk or dagger'".

[Bugbear]

A question on the functionality of the sgian dubh.

In the US as recent as my Dad's generation it was common for everyone to carry a small knife for everyday use. Even to school. I even work with people who feel undressed for not carrying a small folding knife or a buck on their hip. Work in Coorporate America...

Was this the case in Scotland? I would think that the design of the sgian lends itself to a EDC (everyday carry in knife speak).

Jim

Everyone did when I was growing up, too, though not so welcome in school. It jogged my memory of some people carrying knives in their tall boots while working out in the fields and so on, but they were a little bigger than a sgian.

I never had a sgian in my brief kilted time, but I did always have a pocket knife in my sporran or as a fob on my pocket watch.

Sorry, just having old memories; I don't belong in this thread.

[SlackerDrummer]

I think we disagree on this one...

Here is a modern basket-hilt broadsword being carried by an officer of the Royal Regiment of Scotland:

Here are some basket-hilt broadswords in historical styles:


Surely there was a time when swords, such as those pictured above, were a common weapon for Scots, regardless of their social standing (although I suspect that Pole-Arms were perhaps more common, just not as "cool" to future generations). As in the rest of the world, these swords ceased to be functional not long after the rise in popularity of the firearms. As a result, swords were relegated to a ceremonial purpose, that of setting apart some in the military from others. In most cases this distinction was between officers and enlisted men, although Non-Commissioned Officers in the Marine Corps rate swords of their own. Even British court dress used the sword as a symbol that the bearer is a gentleman, not that his ancestors may have hacked at someone with a "previous model."

I don't know that we disagree as much as you might think. I said I was unsure of the "sameness" of the modern sword, which apparently is different, so I do think the wearing of historical replicas undercuts the notion that that sword (the one being worn) is in any way a misappropriated symbol of rank or achievement. Getting into the whole notion of the sword being a symbol of gentility gets tricky in this country where there is by Constitutional guarantee no social strata defining such. Either everyone is potentially a gentleman or no one is.

I guess I can imagine three different scenarios in which one might see a sword being worn in a Highland Games context:
1. The sword is worn as part of a uniform- e.g. the Drum Major of a Pipe Band in Full No.1 Dress. In this case the sword is a part of the uniform and is a sign of rank/significance.
2. A reenactor, dressed to portray an 18th century Highlander, is wearing a period-accurate sword as part of a living history exhibit. In this case the sword is used to demonstrate the manner in which historical Scots fought, so in a sense it has a utilitarian purpose for this particular demonstration.

Both of the above should be welcomed and encouraged I would think.

3. Some guy buys a cheap, imported, basket-hilt broadsword from ebay, straps it on over a couple yards of tartan flannel bought at Jo-Ann Fabric that he's wrapped around his waist, paints his face blue (just like William Wallace did!!), puts on his special "Jacobite" frilly shirt, and attends his local highland games for the first time because he thinks that's what should be worn. I have no idea what purpose the sword could possible serve, other than to make him look like he is a kid playing "dress-up".

Always a little embarrassing to me to see. I saw very similar types of travesties at pow-wows when I was a teenager and exploring in earnest that part of my family tree.

IMHO, wearing a bogus "weapon" with a kilt just serves to make kilted attire a "costume", in the perjorative sense.

I think here is where we may differ, but I'm not sure what you mean by "bogus". I will concede that in looking back through the Highlanders of Scotland series (or at least the ones I can find online), most of the men brandishing swords are wearing some sort of doublet, so I assume they are in Court Dress as Sandy described (thanks again, Sandy). There is at least one, maybe two (hard to tell), who is carrying a sword and who is wearing daywear. This is to say, I'm beginning to back off of my theory that wearing the sword as part of one's finery to show one's "highlandness" was a practice even after the wearing a swords fell out of fashion. I do still think that wearing a sword with period clothing as late as the mid-19th century would be fine for someone, say, running a clan booth - with the caveat that they disclosed that they were in historical costume to those who visited their booth.

But I think we can all agree that exception must be made for Hector MacDonald.

[Tobus]

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what happened.

The sgian dubh is virtually unknown in Scotland before 1800, with the earliest representation (Raeburn's painting of "The Macnab") dating from about 1806. By 1854 Scotland, and all things "Highland" become wildly popular with the upper classes. Sportsmen, drawn to Scotland to shoot stag, notice that the stalkers often carry a small knife in their stocking top, which they put to a variety of uses in the field. The wearing of a sgian dubh quickly becomes the hallmark of someone who has killed a stag (in much the same way that the "gamsbart" worn in HRH Prince Albert's hat marks him out as a member of the German shooting fraternity). This "badge of a hunter" quickly becomes a fashion necessity, and within a few years it is not only considered an indispensable accessory if one is to be well dressed in the Highland manner, the wearing of a "Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu (sic)" is required if wearing Highland attire at the Royal Court.

The sgian dubh has absolutely nothing to do with self defense, and everything to do do with 19th century self-aggrandizement.

That is an interesting bit of history, but I think your conclusion doesn't necessarily match your description.

You seem to have stated that the original use of the sgian dubh was utilitarian (as I bolded in your reply above). Just because others in later years started to wear it as a mere decoration doesn't mean that this was its origin. It seems pretty clear that it was first carried as a functional tool, and only evolved into a decoration later.

Hence, Andy Proffitt's statement was correct. It didn't come about from someone just waking up one day and deciding his sock needed a decoration.

Right?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

That is an interesting bit of history, but I think your conclusion doesn't necessarily match your description.

You seem to have stated that the original use of the sgian dubh was utilitarian (as I bolded in your reply above). Just because others in later years started to wear it as a mere decoration doesn't mean that this was its origin. It seems pretty clear that it was first carried as a functional tool, and only evolved into a decoration later.

Hence, Andy Proffitt's statement was correct. It didn't come about from someone just waking up one day and deciding his sock needed a decoration.

Right?

Oh Absolutely. But not for the reasons some might suppose.

According to a manuscript in the Library of The Writers to the Signet, in Aberdeen, in 1802 The Macnab wished to disguise a scar on his right leg that was visible above the top of his hose. At the suggestion of his daughter he placed an ivory letter opener in his sock, which neatly covered the scar. Later, when discussing his portrait with Raeburn, it was suggested that the handle of the letter opener be painted red to match the red in The Macnab's tartan. MacNab set aside this suggestion, not wishing to call attention to his vanity, and opted instead for black, which was readily (and cheaply) available from the ink pot on his desk. With his scar thus hidden from view the MacNab proceeded to have his portrait painted by Raeburn.

Unfortunately, MacNab-- a man not normally given over to vanities-- deciding to continue to conceal his scar, wore his letter opener in his sock whenever he was out and about in his kilt. Soon, people started to comment about the "perkulier artickel" in MacNab's sock, which caused him to devise a clever, some might say cunning, plan that was to have far-reaching effects in Scotland. Taking to hand a number of rusted table knives with wooden handles (which he had smeared with soot) he instructed his servants to carry them in their right sock when ever they were kilted. Honest Highlanders that they were, they followed The MacNabs command, but not without some discomfort. Soon the rusty, 8-inch blades were cut back to a more manageable length, and the wooden handles likewise trimmed to a less cumbersome size.

These "skeeneen" (meaning the little knife) proved to be handy when out stalking the hills for stag, and soon all of MacNab's shooting parties were adopting the knife as a sign that they had been out "shooting stag" and, in imitation of the MacNab, wore it proudly to indicate their status as hunters, unaware of its originally intended purpose (emphasis added).

A fuller account of this episode can be found in the appendix of The Book of the Old Highlanders, Their Ways and the Vicissitudes of Their Lives, Vol II, privately published by Johnstone & Hamm, Edinburgh, for the Caledonia Society of Granton, in 1872.

Or one can believe whatever other nonsense they want that's been posted on this forum about sgians dubh-- especially the bull-puckey about it being a weapon, how it dates from the Scottish Wars for Independence, or that it is a self defense weapon carried for use in life and death situations (presumably when one has dropped his empty beer bottle).

Oh yes, and don't forget the one about sticking it in your sock to show your host that you don't intend to stab him as soon as he opens the door to let you in. *SHEEEEEESH*

Oh, and by the way, simply because sgians dubh have become more decorative doesn't mean that they have lost their utility; something you may have (wongly) inferred from my posts, but which I have neither stated nor implied.