Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[xman]

@ Macmillan of Rathdown



ty sir

[Drac]

A genuine question for you.

Did the sgian dubh evolve on it's own or evolve from another style? I have noted a surface similarity Scandinavian designs. IMO probably the most utilitarian blades ever designed.

Just curious as on other forums there have been historical discussions of evolution of knives such as the basis of the bowie being the sax.

I am also curious what info you had on the history of the dirks. The way I've heard it told they were originally repurposed broken swords. Logical in other than our disposable everything times but not necessarily true.

Jim

[Dale Seago]

I am also curious what info you had on the history of the dirks. The way I've heard it told they were originally repurposed broken swords. Logical in other than our disposable everything times but not necessarily true.

They weren't originally, but they were occasionally.

There's a nice overview article on the evolution of the dirk here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A genuine question for you.

Did the sgian dubh evolve on it's own or evolve from another style? I have noted a surface similarity Scandinavian designs. IMO probably the most utilitarian blades ever designed.

Just curious as on other forums there have been historical discussions of evolution of knives such as the basis of the bowie being the sax.

I am also curious what info you had on the history of the dirks. The way I've heard it told they were originally repurposed broken swords. Logical in other than our disposable everything times but not necessarily true.

Jim

Hi Jim--

I think that the "small knife" is ubiquitous across all time and all cultures. That said, I think we have to pretty much accept the fact that the sgian dubh makes its appearance at about the same time dirks cease to be commonly worn in the Highlands. The civilian decline of the dirk is probably due to a variety of factors, not the least of which were poverty and the exhaustion of the militant attitude of ordinary Highlanders.

It's my opinion, and one shared by a lot of others, that the earliest sgians dubhs were probably made from broken domestic knives; certainly the earliest surviving examples (dating to about the 1820s-30s) that I've seen suggest they were blacksmith made, as would have been most household knives in the Highlands. Could I say for sure that the blades were re-cycled? No, but it seems likely. From the available pictorial evidence it seems that the sgian dubh was almost uniquely a tool of the hunter. This is borne out by the way stag was hunted in the Highlands in the 19th century.

The shooting party would have included the "Gun", the game keeper, and a man and a young boy who would have followed along, well behind the gun and game keeper, leading a tough little pony that would be used to carry the dead stag back to the hunting lodge or castle.

Once the stag was killed, the game keeper would have whistled up the pony, and the "two men and a boy" would dress out the carcass, and load it on the pony. They would have had with them a set of butchering knives just for this purpose, and it is quite easy to imagine putting the smallest knife in the top of the sock to keep it from getting lost in the gorse and bracken in which they were working. Keeping it the sock would also imbue the wearer with tiny bit of status-- that of the hunter, rather than the gardner. Now, was that smallest knife purpose made, or re-cycled? Probably a combination of both, but until we find definitive proof, the best we can do is make an educated guess.

I am of the mind that in the early 19th century, when shooting parties started to become a regular feature of the Highlands, the sgians dubh were recycled from blacksmith made household knives. Later, proper kits of butchering knives would have been imported from England or Germany (remember Prince Albert, a German, was an avid hunter and would have had all of the paraphernalia inseparable from shooting game). These same kits also found their way into the hands of North American buffalo hunters at about the same time (mid-19h century).

As for the wearing of the sgain dubh, until it was adopted as a "badge" by the stag shooting fraternity, it was really only worn by the "two men and a boy" who accompanied the gun into the hills.

I am afraid I can't comment on the relationship between the bowie knife and the sax, except to say that I haven't come across this theory before.

As to the stories about dirks being made from broken sword blades, they have a degree of truth, but I would venture to say that it was not a wide spread occurrence, and that prior to 1600 it probably didn't happen. There are three events in Scottish history that would make broken sword blades available: (1) the Cromwellian wars; (2) the war against William and Mary; (3) the Jacobite rising of 1745-46. These events take place at roughly fifty year intervals, and each coincides nicely with the development of what we think of as the "typical" dirk, which begins to appear in the 1640s, at a time when a good number of blades would have been broken. There is then a great pause in the development of the dirk during the Commonwealth, only to pick up again after the death of Charles II and the wars in opposition to William and Mary; again, broken swords would have been available as a result of warfare. Moving forward another half century we find the Jacobite armies smashed, and a goodly number of sword blades available to be cut down to dirk length.

So, using the above time line I think it is fair to suggest that it is highly unlikely that many, if any at all, dirks were made from cut-down sword blades prior to about 1650. Now if we examine the shape of a Highland sword blade and a dirk blade over the next century (1650-1750) we run into a minor problem. The vast majority of Highland sword blades of this period are double edged, while the blades of Highland dirks are almost universally single edged. This fact alone would tend to mitigate against the idea that broken sword blades were cut down into dirks. Now as it happens, there are dirks from the early and mid-18th century that are cut down from sword blades, but we have no way of knowing by whom, or (more importantly) where. For all we know they may have been imported from Germany (where most Scottish blades originated) and could have been made from single edged "back swords" what were deemed unsuitable to be hilted.

In 1909 Charles Whitelaw wrote an amazing book on the Highland dirk (The Origin and Developement of the Highland Dirk) which really covers the subject in depth. If you can find it, it's well worth a read.

[thescot]

Screw all the political correctness. Fact is, I'd love to don a sword, pistol, jeweled dirk, and powder horn and show up at a big party sporting a fine doublet and lace. Styles may change, and fashions vary, but the fact is, most of us would love to get dressed up with all that stuff and go out in public.

But most of us don't have the gonads to do so. Someone might laugh. Or ridicule. Or say there's no reason to do so. But there's no reason to wear a kilt except that I want to wear one. So, if you want to wear a sword, get a baldric and wear it. It's not too dificult to figure out the details of attaching the scabbard to the frog.

I hate political correctness, and a blade is just that--a blade. If some countries outlaw blades of any kind, so be it. But where I live, one can do as one pleases as long as one doesn't hurt someoe else. So wear the sword with confidence if that's what you want to do. Just know that some folks will shake their heads and poo-poo you. Others will see you and say, "Damn. That's cool. Wish I had the brass to wear it."

[Drac]

Thanks MacMillan of Rathdown and Dale.

I was curious on the sgian. While the dirk is a usable knife it always struck me as a bit big for an EDC even though the common knives back then were much bigger than what we would concider for carrying around to work these days. My main line of knives I make are hunters and it would seem that a dirk would be an ackward size. Not that it couldn't be used but that I would have thought that there would be a smaller knife for dressing out game.

On the link between the bowie and sax that was something I throw out as an example. If you would like I can try and find the thread that the real historians (in otherwords not me) of the knife forum. The general discussion was that the two surviving discriptions of the knife used at the sandbar duel discribes a very rough and ugly knife, probably more like a butcher knife. The idea of the link is that many of the "bowies" that followed were made in or based on designs from Sheffield England. That's what little I remember (and may not be complete). Any more and I would need to direct you to the tread rather than get myself into more trouble.

Back to the question at hand. The carrying of swords is not that outdated as you would think.

The following link is on US Navy swords and while I won't say it 100% accurate it does for the most part paralell what we are taught in Navy histroy -

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...form_sword.htm

It wasn't until 1942 that the sword was offically removed and referances manual in 1904 and 1938 of the carrying of swords. Interesting enough the dirk was offered as an altenative to the sword.

jim

[EldarKinSlayer]

Thanks MacMillan of Rathdown and Dale.

I was curious on the sgian. While the dirk is a usable knife it always struck me as a bit big for an EDC even though the common knives back then were much bigger than what we would concider for carrying around to work these days. My main line of knives I make are hunters and it would seem that a dirk would be an ackward size. Not that it couldn't be used but that I would have thought that there would be a smaller knife for dressing out game.

On the link between the bowie and sax that was something I throw out as an example. If you would like I can try and find the thread that the real historians (in otherwords not me) of the knife forum. The general discussion was that the two surviving discriptions of the knife used at the sandbar duel discribes a very rough and ugly knife, probably more like a butcher knife. The idea of the link is that many of the "bowies" that followed were made in or based on designs from Sheffield England. That's what little I remember (and may not be complete). Any more and I would need to direct you to the tread rather than get myself into more trouble.

Back to the question at hand. The carrying of swords is not that outdated as you would think.

The following link is on US Navy swords and while I won't say it 100% accurate it does for the most part paralell what we are taught in Navy histroy -

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...form_sword.htm

It wasn't until 1942 that the sword was offically removed and referances manual in 1904 and 1938 of the carrying of swords. Interesting enough the dirk was offered as an altenative to the sword.

jim

Drac I am no where near an expert in this but Naval Dirks are stylistically quite different from a Scottish Dirk, mostly in hilt shape and the addition of Brass Quillons.

[Drac]

Drac I am no where near an expert in this but Naval Dirks are stylistically quite different from a Scottish Dirk, mostly in hilt shape and the addition of Brass Quillons.

True. They kind of remind me of bayonets actually. Just commenting on the paralells that the sword giving over to a long hand held knife.

Jim

[Biathlonman]

Drac - That was a fascinating read. The great reforming admiral Jacky Fisher, who launched the Dreadnaught revolution, joked once that he was looking for cutlasses on board ships, but military blades have survived even in this hi-tech era. Some close quarter fighting in the Falklands was with the bayonet. The Japanese attachment to their blades was such that pilots even took them into the cockpit in WW2. Sir John Hackett once wrote that at Sandhurst in the 20s they were taught to fight from horseback with a sword, but a few cadets nearly took their horse's ears off.

A sword can be a beautiful thing, but very awkward for most of us to manage most of the time. Give me a skean dhu to cut my haggis with instead. Always much admired.

[macwilkin]

Drac - That was a fascinating read. The great reforming admiral Jacky Fisher, who launched the Dreadnaught revolution, joked once that he was looking for cutlasses on board ships, but military blades have survived even in this hi-tech era. Some close quarter fighting in the Falklands was with the bayonet. The Japanese attachment to their blades was such that pilots even took them into the cockpit in WW2. Sir John Hackett once wrote that at Sandhurst in the 20s they were taught to fight from horseback with a sword, but a few cadets nearly took their horse's ears off.

A sword can be a beautiful thing, but very awkward for most of us to manage most of the time. Give me a skean dhu to cut my haggis with instead. Always much admired.

A squad of Argylls fixed bayonets and charged a group of Iraqi insurgents back in 2003.

In terms of naval cutlasses, I always think of the movie (and novel) The Sand Pebbles, where Chief Franks brandishes a cutlass and a M1911 during battle drill on the USS San Pablo. Cutlasses were frequently used by China Sailors, along with BARs.

T.