Which Clan?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

In agreement with what Jock has written, I will add that from the heraldic standpoint of "tartan inheritance" (as opposed to any sort of genetic/DNA inheritance) one would usually assume the named tartan of their nearest Scottish ancestor, whether that was in the paternal or maternal line. So, if you go back two generations on your mother's side before you reach a Scottish ancestor, but have to go back six on your father's side, then you would most likely adopt the tartan that first occurs in the maternal line. It is this practice that has led to the concept of "wearing your mother's tartan" if there is no clan tartan associated with your surname.

Now, that said, because this is a matter of assuming, rather than inheriting, a tartan there is no legal reason why you couldn't adopt a tartan from the paternal line. If you did, you would be taking the position that however many generations ago your male ancestor became, through marriage, a member of Clan X, accepted the Clan X tartan as his, and that that "sense" of being a member of Clan X has passed down, through the generations, to yourself.

Personally, unless one has a "by blood" or "by adoption" connection to a specific clan I would advise against indiscriminately choosing a clan tartan merely on the basis of "Gee, that looks nice". Likewise, in total agreement with Jock, I would suggest that once you determine your Clan affiliation, you stick with it, to the exclusion of all others.

In the Bible it says, "You can not serve two masters and love them both" and in those places where the wearing of tartan has meaning, wearing more than one clan tartan definitely sends the same message.

[macwilkin]

In agreement with what Jock has written, I will add that from the heraldic standpoint of "tartan inheritance" (as opposed to any sort of genetic/DNA inheritance) one would usually assume the named tartan of their nearest Scottish ancestor, whether that was in the paternal or maternal line. So, if you go back two generations on your mother's side before you reach a Scottish ancestor, but have to go back six on your father's side, then you would most likely adopt the tartan that first occurs in the maternal line. It is this practice that has led to the concept of "wearing your mother's tartan" if there is no clan tartan associated with your surname.

Now, that said, because this is a matter of assuming, rather than inheriting, a tartan there is no legal reason why you couldn't adopt a tartan from the paternal line. If you did, you would be taking the position that however many generations ago your male ancestor became, through marriage, a member of Clan X, accepted the Clan X tartan as his, and that that "sense" of being a member of Clan X has passed down, through the generations, to yourself.

Personally, unless one has a "by blood" or "by adoption" connection to a specific clan I would advise against indiscriminately choosing a clan tartan merely on the basis of "Gee, that looks nice". Likewise, in total agreement with Jock, I would suggest that once you determine your Clan affiliation, you stick with it, to the exclusion of all others.

In the Bible it says, "You can not serve two masters and love them both" and in those places where the wearing of tartan has meaning, wearing more than one clan tartan definitely sends the same message.

The right honourable delegate from Missouri seconds Rathdown's post...

T.

[Jock Scot]

SlackerDrummer.

I know many proud Scots, me included, that have no Scots sounding name, so on the face of it we don't have a tartan to align to.Many of my ancestors hail from Normandy. In my case, I can find a good reason,should I care to look, to wear the tartan that I and my ancestors have worn and no doubt there are many Scots in my position.One must not forget that the locals, in my case, know exactly who my ancestors were and that situation goes back a few hundred years for me. Likewise I know the ancestry of many of the locals too!

There are others with no Scots sounding name without an "official" tartan to their name. They,and or their ancestors have picked a Clan tartan and now have, for whatever reason, a tartan and may have had for many generations----or 5 minutes. District tartans are almost unknown in modern(certainly 70 years past) Scotland and I know few(any) that have chosen a tartan from that option. Perhaps they should, but they don't.

In either case, no one ever asks and no one ever explains and the system works perfectly as long as, I suppose, you stick to one tartan. No one is, frankly, interested who, when and why your GGGGG Aunt's cousin's cousin moved from Skye to the Black Isle. Unless genealogy happens to be your thing ,or,the family bible has not been lost, we just accept the tartan that is being worn as "his" tartan, end of story.

So if "Chuck Jones from Texas" takes up residence in Oban and wanders down the High Street wearing his MacOnion tartan kilt--properly--- as far as the locals are concerned that is "Chuck's" tartan . There is nothing more to be said.

Clan societies do exist in Scotland, but I don't know of any one who troubles with them seriously, unless you are a Clan Chief needing a new roof on the castle, that is. If you think about it once the tartan has been chosen why bother with any other Clan or Clan society?

[SlackerDrummer]

My surname, I'm pretty sure is English or Irish. As luck would have it, that is one of the lines only documented (to date) back to the early 1800s.

My mother's paternal grandmother was an Ivester, descending from Hugh Isbister who came over from Orkney, which could provide a Sinclair connection. And my mother's maternal grandmother was an Austin, so far traced only to Ireland but pretty sure they are Scots-Irish.

Going further back there are several more Scots, but these two are the closest and are both a big part of our family lore.

Well, you all have given me food for thought. Thanks again.

[McElmurry]

You might also consider a Celtic Association if you have one locally.

I am not imbedding the picture because it comes in huge but here is a link.


http://www.nevadacountycelticclub.or...Burns%2010.jpg

[Lyle1]

Personally, unless one has a "by blood" or "by adoption" connection to a specific clan I would advise against indiscriminately choosing a clan tartan merely on the basis of "Gee, that looks nice". Likewise, in total agreement with Jock, I would suggest that once you determine your Clan affiliation, you stick with it, to the exclusion of all others.

In the Bible it says, "You can not serve two masters and love them both" and in those places where the wearing of tartan has meaning, wearing more than one clan tartan definitely sends the same message.

I understand the sentiment, but I suppose it really depends on what being affiliated with a clan means to you. Being American bred and reared, I don't personally feel that I "belong" to any clan. I have blood ties to well over a dozen clans, and I might sort it all out if I lived in Scotland, but I am an American, not a Scot. Since I am not ruled by a clan or its chief, the subject of clan affiliation has little relevance to me.

I feel an emotional attachment the the Clan Stewart, because of my paternal grandfather, who was born in Scotland, and with whom I was quite close as a child. If I were to wear a tartan associated with the clan of my mother's surname, it would be to honor the memory of my mother, not to honor one clan over another.

I do not feel beholden to or feel that I serve any clan, nor do I feel obliged to limit my sentimental attachment to any clan to which my ancestors belonged. The Scottish culture is part of my heritage, and I will revel in it, but I will not be ruled by it, any more than I would be ruled by or forsake the cultures of any of the more than a dozen other nationalities of my ancestors in order to honor only one!

It is not all about rules for me. It is, rather, about including something in my life that I like and that has some meaning for me, and to do that I am the only person who has to be happy with my choices.

[Singlemalt]

I agree that way too much is made of this Clan affiliation stuff. I grew up with a Scottish grandparents on my fathers side (Thomson) who emigrated to Canada in 1919, with five children, from a small village outside Inverness. My mothers family was in Canada much longer but from Cape Breton Nova Scotia and were Kerrs, MacLeods, MacNiels and Camerons, many of them native Gaelic speakers. In my rural Canadian home there was no doubt our family was Scottish (we would have said Scotch) however I recall no discussion of any affiliation with any Scottish Clan. We were just who we were, Scotch Canadians.

I wear Thomson tartan because it matches my surname however it is not very historic. I understand it was designed by Lord Thomson of Fleet, another Canadian of Scottish background in the 1950's. Certainly many of the families on my mothers side had a longer and more iconic Highland history but when I wear my kilt my tartan, matches my name, and it saves a hell of a lot of explaining.

I am new to the forum but perhaps a subject worth discussing is the whole subject of Scots, Scottish, Scotch?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I understand the sentiment, but I suppose it really depends on what being affiliated with a clan means to you. Being American bred and reared, I don't personally feel that I "belong" to any clan. I have blood ties to well over a dozen clans, and I might sort it all out if I lived in Scotland, but I am an American, not a Scot. Since I am not ruled by a clan or its chief, the subject of clan affiliation has little relevance to me.

Since, as you say, you are an American, and you don't "belong" to any clan, and since clan affiliation has little relevance to you, why do you choose to dress as a Highland Scot, but ignore the cultural nuances associated with the wearing of tartan? Or have I misinterpreted what you have posted?

[Lyle1]

Since, as you say, you are an American, and you don't "belong" to any clan, and since clan affiliation has little relevance to you, why do you choose to dress as a Highland Scot, but ignore the cultural nuances associated with the wearing of tartan? Or have I misinterpreted what you have posted?

Yes, I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote.

Whatever it means to you, clan affiliation will never be anything more than an abstract idea for me; I will probably never meet a clan chief, and I know that I will never owe allegiance to one. The idea that my Scottish ancestors were members of clans (and often fought one another because of it) is meaningful to me, but not in a way that will change my life. If clan affiliation means more to you, enjoy it.

I emphatically do not choose to dress as a highland Scot. I do choose to sometimes wear a kilt and other accessories, just as I sometimes wear green on St. Patrick's Day to honor my Irish ancestry, or wear red to a St. Joseph's Table, as some of my Italian ancestors did.

I do not ignore the cultural nuances. I adapt traditions from my ancestral heritage so they might be compatible with my fairly typical American lifestyle. Immigrants to this country have always adapted their cultures in order to continue in some way the observance of their traditions in a land that did not offer the same climate, the same foods, or the same social conventions or tolerance that they remembered from their homelands. For many it was a choice of adapting a tradition or losing it. Indeed, many of the traditions that I learned from my family were not passed unchanged from the lands of their origins. As a member of an ethnic organization, I recently helped plan a traditional observance that none of our members had ever planned, though they knew that their grandparents had. We found plenty of consistent historical references as to how the event was traditionally observed in the country of its origin. However, the references relating to how the event has been observed in America over the last 100+ years evidenced much more variety in how the tradition has been interpreted and enacted. We choose those practices that best met our needs and that would reflect a range of the traditions that our various members remembered, however dimly, and we had a very enjoyable and memorable evening. As a result, the core traditions of the observance will live in our member's memories for at least one more generation.

There is no one proper way to show respect for the culture of Scotland or any nation. Each of us can and must choose the ways that are both meaningful and doable for ourselves. To argue that there is only one way to honor the memory of the clans is about as sensible and meaningful as arguing about white kilt hose.

[AKScott]

Since, as you say, you are an American, and you don't "belong" to any clan, and since clan affiliation has little relevance to you, why do you choose to ...snip...ignore the cultural nuances associated with the wearing of tartan?

Or have I misinterpreted what you have posted?

Yes, I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote.

Whatever it means to you, clan affiliation will never be anything more than an abstract idea for me;

...snip...

There is no one proper way to show respect for the culture of Scotland or any nation. Each of us can and must choose the ways that are both meaningful and doable for ourselves.

And here we have the crux of the biscuit. Both gentlemen are correct, they merely have different frames of reference.

Lyle, you have explicated what it means to be an American most eloquently.

MacMillan of Rathdowne, as usual, is gently pointing those of us outside the culture at the deeper meaning from which the material trappings spring.

Finding the balance point more respectful than mere surface veneer, but still holding fast to our truly American roots is a dilemma every thinking American must inevitably face. Many settle for skipping the surface veneer entirely.

Lyle, you have either a breathtaking intuitive grasp of anthropology, or significant formal training in the discipline. While I admire your demonstrated ability to discuss the material with comprehensive polite analysis; I likewise encourage you to tread cautiously, you are exploring not just an academic discipline but what it means to be yourself. If I may be so bold, MacMillan personifies a piece of you, a piece of each of us from the States on XMarks.

Coming to terms with him is not merely an academic exercise, but an opportunity for personal growth. Imagine you could collect 24 or however many other men like MacMillan representing your personal gene pool and have a conversation with them...

Peace to you my cousins.