Sub-Forum Descriptors

[DWFII]

Please excuse me...I don't intend to be flippant or ungracious but I really believe, if this were done, it were best it was done in as straight-forward and honest a manner as possible.

I suggest:

• Historical Highland Dress. The place for discussion of historical Scottish Highland civilian and military apparel and style. (Basically prior to the Reign of Edward VII.)

This is fine--it is direct and needs no further explanation

• Traditional Highland Dress. The place for discussion of traditional and classic Scottish Highland apparel and style.

Again, the kilt is Scottish...or it is nothing. Difficult to mis-read or misunderstand.

• Stylish Riffs on Kilted Fashion: Evolving variations of style that respect the spirit and origins of Scottish Highland Dress.

Creates a "room" for those who feel limited by traditional and classic convention. Clear and unequivocal.

• Modern Unbifurcated Garments. The place for discussion of various alternative fashions, styles and manners of wearing kilt-like garments current today.

Unabashedly honest and to the point. No shilly-shallying. Impossible to misunderstand. Gives the modernists their own exclusive room.

There's a subtle irony here that all but the mods may miss--the more you try to please everyone, the fewer who will be content.

For the rest of us...look where this has led us--a simple and well-intentioned suggestion to revise the definition of the Traditional sub-forum now has people in some quarters wanting to eliminate the Traditional sub-forum altogether or conflate/dilute it such that no one will ever again be sure what is appropriate to discuss there.

[Father Bill]

It's a tough call. I do like DWFII's last post - but it does betray a personal point of view with which, as it happens, I am in accord.

Whatever decision is made, congratulations and thanks to the staff for trying to keep things positive, productive, and purposeful. It's an uphill but gratifying task.

[English Bloke]

... a simple and well-intentioned suggestion to revise the definition of the Traditional sub-forum now has people in some quarters wanting to eliminate the Traditional sub-forum altogether or conflate/dilute it such that no one will ever be sure what is appropriate to discuss in it...

Whatever gives you that idea? That's not how I'm seeing it.

This site wouldn't BE Xmarks without the traditionalist view-point. If I need advice on how NOT to look an idiot at a pukka Highland wedding, Burns Supper or Scottish Society Dinner I AM going to come to you Blokes for the best advice. I certainly wouldn't be asking people like me...

"Yeah mate, denim jacket and work boots'll be fine... There's no rules!"

No offence... I'm attempting to lighten the tone of a serious topic obviously.

EDIT: I'll shuddup now.

[Riverkilt]

So would tartan kilts made from polyviscose, cotton/polyesther blend or acrylic be "traditional" or "non-traditional?"

[Joshua]

So would tartan kilts made from polyviscose, cotton/polyesther blend or acrylic be "traditional" or "non-traditional?"

I think we've visited that one... cot/poly, polyv, acrylic tartan (bolded as it is the operative term) kilts worn in a traditional manner would most likely fall into the "traditional" camp, while not being "historical".

I would challenge anyone (with the exception of the likes of our experienced kiltmakers) to tell the difference between my 9-yard hand-sewn PV and a wool kilt without actually touching the fabric.

And many of us (yourself included, Mr. Desert ) don't live in climates that easily permit wool kilts, save but a couple of months out of each year. But we still want to be comfortable, show heritage, and/or some culture when we dress.

I like simplifying the forums.
Historical Scottish Highland Dress - This forum would be active to our re-enactors and cover mostly the Jacobite period up to the 20th century.

Contemporary Scottish Highland Dress - This would cover the established "norms", essentially becoming (sorry Jock) the "WWJSD?" forum. This would be the place to discuss everything in the daywear/eveningwear/formalwear realm of tartan and/or tweed kilts.

Contemporary Kiltwear - This is where modern kiltwear regardless of formality would go. So you have a classic charcoal argyle, waistcoat, classic hose and brogues, but wear a gold lamé knife-pleated kilt, you would go here.


Even though the lines could be blurred with the Contemporary Scottish forum... even wearing a polo shirt with a kilt, or being otherwise traditional and wearing hiking boots, well, much to my own chagrin I would concede that since the polo shirt (and flatcap, honestly) have no roots in Scottish dress, I would place them in the "Contemporary Kiltwear" forum.

Many of us with thinning heads of hair should be benefiting from this thread, as every hair on it has been solidly split...

[DWFII]

Whatever gives you that idea? That's not how I'm seeing it.

No offence... I'm attempting to lighten the tone of a serious topic obviously.

Whatever gave me that idea? I guess because I take this seriously, I've been paying closer attention. Some posts have made direct statements to that effect, some have just created a de facto scenario in which a Traditonal sub-forum would be, by implication, superfluous.

To whit:

From

Scrap the lot and just have...

Modern kilt wear
To include all types of kilt worn today.
My local kiltmaker is now selling plain and tweed kilts if you want one.
Many on XMTS wear both trad tartan and other fabric/style kilts.
Scotland is changing slowly so grouping all types of modern kilt together may encourage a greater acceptance. Note there are many non members on here.
Currently Active Users: 95 (23 members and 72 guests)

Historical kilt wear
Anything historical, no date required.

Just my 2 pence worth.

Chris.

100 years from now someone will find an image of me wearing a kilt, work boots, socks pushed down, a hoody and a baseball cap. This look will then be referred to as traditional ;). Many a Scottish history grad student will be writing about the "newvo-trad" look.

... I do not understand why it matters so much which forum I (or anyone else) posts into. Am I going to be kicked out of the XMTS club if I believe my 8-yd knife pleated kilt worn with full PC get up belongs in a modern forum thread for discussions?

I
A certain antiquity is suggested by 1901 (the beginning of the reign of Edward VII) to the 1980's being the period of the traditional kilt. The implication is that THCD is a static, historical style of dress. Overtime, there has been a negative backlash from some members of the forum against the traditional ways and part of that reaction has been framed (at worst) as THCD being a sort of brigadoonish costume.

As for folding "questionably" traditional things into this sub-forum, that can provide lively and spirited debate! There have been many things posted here (like leopard fur sporrans or skull and crossbone symbols) that I would not have thought traditional until someone enlightened me Similarly, there are things that people might think are traditional (like white hose) but aren't. That's exactly the sort of thing that fuels discussion.

THCD is a living tradition that is still evolving, albeit slowly and with an eye to the classic. There is a straight and narrow, which is clear cut and can be stated as "rules." There is also a border-zone or grey area to could be the edge of traditional or the beginning of modern...

For me, traditional IS contemporary. By definition, it's still being done that way or has ceased to be a tradition. Modern can echo tradition or go in a totally different direction.

I am new to this forum and do not know all the history of the wearing of a kilt. I do appreciate the scholars in the rabble who know and have studied the wearing of the kilt,its, history, the tartans and the clans.
I do not understand as to why all this discussion is on tradition and the right and wrong way to wear a kilt.
In my mind we all wish we could all connect to our heritage, no matter how far back we need to go in our family tree.
The idea is to get the kilt to become an everyday dress a man can wear without anyone putting us down.
This thread appears to be an attempt to stop anyone from ever wearing kilt or even become proud of there heritage unless it is Traditional" whatever that may mean.

....still confused and would prefer just "Historical kilt wear" and "Modern Kiltware"

I like simplifying the forums.
Historical Scottish Highland Dress - This forum would be active to our re-enactors and cover mostly the Jacobite period up to the 20th century.

Contemporary Scottish Highland Dress - This would cover the established "norms", essentially becoming (sorry Jock) the "WWJSD?" forum. This would be the place to discuss everything in the daywear/eveningwear/formalwear realm of tartan and/or tweed kilts.

Contemporary Kiltwear - This is where modern kiltwear regardless of formality would go. So you have a classic charcoal argyle, waistcoat, classic hose and brogues, but wear a gold lamé knife-pleated kilt, you would go here.


Even though the lines could be blurred with the Contemporary Scottish forum...

Add it all up...what I walk away with is that many would like to "(re)define" the boundaries... even the English language...such that their own preferences, their own preconceptions, reach a wider audience, perhaps even wider acceptance. (see link I provided in post #7)

It's a little like joining the Catholic church (no offense to any religion) and then deciding it's too restrictive and that the Reformation needs to be fought all over again.

As my old drill sergeant always said..."you volunteered for this shift (sic)!"

If we really and truly come into this...into this forum, this sub-forum, these discussions...with our eyes wide open, there is no need to remake everyone in our own image.

[Joshua]

Add it all up...what I walk away with is that many would like to "(re)define" the boundaries... even the English language...such that their own preferences, their own preconceptions, reach a wider audience, perhaps even wider acceptance. (see link I provided in post #7)

It's a little like joining the Catholic church (no offense to any religion) and then deciding it's too restrictive and that the Reformation needs to be fought all over again.

As my old drill sergeant always said..."you volunteered for this shift (sic)!"

If we really and truly come into this...into this forum, this sub-forum, these discussions...with our eyes wide open, there is no need to remake everyone in our own image.

Speaking our mind isn't an attempt to change the rules or even to sway. If the "sub forums" are a matter of discussion, I (and everyone else here) has right to voice an opinion.

TBH - I could care less. If it were my forum, would I adjust the boards accordingly? Perhaps. It's not my board. And honestly, it's not a subject that I've lost any amount of sleep over... I'm just voicing an opinion, that from what my limited, feeble, young brain can comprehend... there are 3 distinct "spheres" of kilt wearing, hell I'd even side with chrisupyonder and split them even less into two spheres (modern vs. historical).

In fact, as much as I would like a separate TCHD forum, apparently it's the separation that's got folks in an uproar. Maybe we just dump everything into a single bucket and have it done with.

[English Bloke]

Fair enough. I see your point.

[DWFII]

Speaking our mind isn't an attempt to change the rules or even to sway. If the "sub forums" are a matter of discussion, I (and everyone else here) has right to voice an opinion.

TBH - I could care less. If it were my forum, would I adjust the boards accordingly? Perhaps. It's not my board. And honestly, it's not a subject that I've lost any amount of sleep over... I'm just voicing an opinion, that from what my limited, feeble, young brain can comprehend... there are 3 distinct "spheres" of kilt wearing, hell I'd even side with chrisupyonder and split them even less into two spheres (modern vs. historical).

In fact, as much as I would like a separate TCHD forum, apparently it's the separation that's got folks in an uproar. Maybe we just dump everything into a single bucket and have it done with.

I wouldn't deny you your right to voice your opinion. I don't know how you read that especially since you are quite clearly reinforcing the point I made at the end of post #11.

At least I read and recognized your opinion and addressed it...which is, no matter how you cut it, simply exercising my right to express an opinion.

But again...and again, if necessary...I remind folks that "dumping everything into a single bucket" (or two buckets, for that matter) is/has been a recipe for conflict and contention.

And if the situation as outlined in the the thread "Why this forum has so little activity compared to...." is anywhere near reality and the results of having that debate indicative, it's not only not going to improve the situation for those who feel left out, it's actually going to make it worse.

The only way to create one bucket that will satisfy everyone and reduce contention is to be true to the name of the forum, recognize that "Scot" means Scottish...in spirit as well as in application...and eliminate everything that doesn't strictly apply.

See OED definition of "kilt."

[Cowher]

I think the Historical section is clearly defined. I think the modern section section is clearly defined. The Traditional section is not clearly defined. Some here feel that the traditional section is being changed. I don't wish this to be true.

I like the three sections the way they are. I like the discussions that are had in each and I like how they are separated. I DO NOT like the way the traditional section is defined. The dates listed are incorrect.

In whatever manner the owner and mods of this forum define each subforum the definitions should be a true definition devoid of misrepresentation.

I think along with a definition change of the traditional section a sticky should be made in all three subforums describing exactly what is to be discussed there. In the discussion in the modern section Steve explained what he intended to be discussed there. That cleared up alot of confusion. If a sticky with a explanation and pictures were to be posted in each of the three sections IF someone was still confused by the subforums definition (because of their own lack of knowledge) they could look to the sticky and they would understand what is what.

Cheers! And let's not start up a heated discussion again. This thread is where we were asked to voice our opinion. Not a place to convince everyone that our opinion is the only one that is correct.
Give your two cents and keep the change.