Identity in the Scottish Diaspora

[Jock Scot]

-------- I think that's the same as a North American descendant of Scottish immigrants being called "Scottish".

They are not by many in Scotland.

[Nathan]

Not by many in Scotland they are not.

Try to follow the point, Jock. I have heard people in Scotland refer to descendants from the subcontinent as Asian even though they don't live in Asia and were born in Scotland. Similarly, people in Canada refer to different ethnic groups (Scots descendants included) by their land of origin. I am demonstrating, by way of analogy, that your country also uses this kind of geographic shorthand to describe various communities.

I think people on this forum have explained ad nauseum why this is a natural shorthand that is used to describe different communities in our Country.

I certainly can't stop you from being obstinate on the matter. There is, in English usage, a geographic, civic, cultural as well as ethnic meaning for any country's people and products.

To illustrate this obvious point further, consider this:

Is this guy Scottish?

Calum MacKenzie, born and raised Perth, Ontario, Canada - resides Perth, Ontario, Canada:

Civic definition: No
Geographic definition: No
Ethnic/genealogical definition: Yes
Cultural definition: Yes and No

Kumar Patel, born and raised in Perthshire, Scotland, UK - resides in London, England, UK

Civic definition: Yes
Geographic definition: Yes
Ethnic/genealogical definition: No
Cultural definition: Yes and No

Hugh Sinclair, born and raised Glasgow, Scotland, UK - resides in Glasgow

Civic definition: Yes
Geographic definition: Yes
Ethnic/genealogical definition: Yes
Cultural definition: Yes


If your rebuttal is simply that people in Scotland don't agree, that analysis is equivalent to a schoolyard children saying "no way" - "Yes way".

This thread asked the question of why some diaspora Scots choose to take an interest in and identify with their Scottish heritage.

The answer is because it is indeed their heritage and it provides them with a cultural context in a diverse land. It explains the way they speak, dress, worship, where their people chose to settle and why they have the name they do.

Nobody can stop a native Scot from saying to his diaspora cousin, "You're not actually Scottish by any definition" but that doesn't make the curmudgeon who says it correct nor will it stop the diaspora Scot from continuing to be what he is.

[Jock Scot]

As long as an American, or wherever, outwith Scotland does not claim to be Scottish or a Scot, I can live with his/her ancestors.

No one can do anything about our ancestors Nathan, they are what they are. However, the Scots that I know and I happen to know more than a few, I also have a fairly large family and also have many Sottish acquaintances so not a large sample of Scotland I grant you. Nevertheless its a large enough sample for me to feel fairly comfortable in thinking as I do. You can quote this, that and the other and be totally convinced in what you say, but that is not how many Scots think.

The above reply to David, is and has always been my stance and in my experience, the stance of others in Scotland.

[Nathan]

No one can do anything about our ancestors Nathan, they are what they are. However, the Scots that I know and I happen to know more than a few, I also have a fairly large family and also have many Sottish acquaintances so not a large sample of Scotland I grant you. Nevertheless its a large enough sample for me to feel fairly comfortable in thinking as I do. You can quote this, that and the other and be totally convinced in what you say, but that is not how many Scots think.

The above reply to David, is and has always been my stance and in my experience, the stance of others in Scotland.

If you're accurate in your anecdotal claim that acknowledging simple facts is "not how many Scots think" they need to open their minds. Consensus does not equal correctness.

Many people thought the earth was flat. many people thought people of other ethnic or religious groups were less than human, many people thought vaccines caused autism. Like you, those people were all incorrect in the face of the evidence. it matters not what you think. It matters what is so.

[Jock Scot]

If you're accurate in your anecdotal claim that acknowging simple facts is "not how many Scots think" they need to open their minds. Consensus does not equal correctness.

Many people thought the earth was flat. many people thought people of other ethnic or religious groups were less than human, many people thought vaccines caused autism. Like you, those people were all incorrect in the face of the evidence. it matters not what you think. It matters what is so.

Steady Nathan you are on the cusp of being insulting. The Scots of my acquaintance think as they do as I honestly report. I think we are best to leave it there, don't you?

[Nathan]

Steady Nathan you are on the cusp of being insulting. The Scots of my acquaintance think as they do as I honestly report. I think we are best to leave it there, don't you?

Sure I do. Since I don't think you grasp that telling someone of proud Scottish heritage and diaspora culture they're not Scottish in any way is well past the cusp of being insulting.

[Jock Scot]

A differing of strongly held opinions is not in the least bit insulting when discussed with courtesy.

When implications of doubting someones honesty are voiced then that is most certainly insulting. Particularly when an outsider starts telling how another country may or may not think.

Nathan this discussion really ought to stop right now. Therefore, I do not propose to voice one word more on this subject in this thread, than what I have already said.

[Wareyin]

We on this site understand that a vest means something different when an American says it than a Scot (a vest is what Americans call a waistcoat, and a vest is what a Scot calls an undershirt). We also all understand that there are many other words which have different meanings to different countries even though they speak the same language. With that knowledge, it seems to me that those of us who do know this should be understanding of the differences, and accept that those differences are there. If I say that I will be wearing a vest with no jacket with my kilt, I would hope that any long-time poster on this site would not argue that I (as an American) could not mean waistcoat, and that I claimed I would only be wearing an undershirt and kilt out and about. I would hope that we could apply the same thing to the term "Scottish." We Americans can try to use the phrase "Scottish heritage" or some such, and hopefully any Scot (who isn't just looking to argue for the sake of it) could understand that a new user from America is using it as that user understands it to mean: "Scottish heritage/ancestry," and not insist on only hearing "Scottish citizen."

But we have to be willing to understand that our way of speaking is not the only way of speaking, and be willing to accept explanations from users who offer them.

[Nathan]

A differing of strongly held opinions is not in the least bit insulting when discussed with courtesy.

When implications of doubting someones honesty are voiced then that is most certainly insulting. Particularly when an outsider starts telling how another country may or may not think.

Nathan this discussion really ought to stop right now. Therefore, I do not propose to voice one word more on this subject in this thread, than what I have already said.

I don't doubt your honesty. But by demanding Scottish-Canadians/Americans/Australians not refer to themselves as Scottish in any context, it is you who are telling the residents of another country how to we may or not think of ourselves.

Claiming to be able to dictate someone else's identity is indeed insulting. Asking you to open your mind that others may view the issue differently than you and may have a valid perspective is certainly not as insulting as smugly attempting to exclude people from their own familial and ethnocultural heritage.

[Liam]

Gentlemen.... We have crossed this same bridge many times in the past and I doubt more discussion however respectfully done will change the other party's opinion. Like the Padre, I expect this type of thread discourages new members to join the forum and causes some to leave or be far less active.
Slainte to all!