Native Scots vs the scottish diaspora

[saxandpipes]

Very interesting discussion.

I don't want to get into the debate which is rising again, but would like to contribute to the discussion.

My mother's mother was Scottish and her father's mother was born in Scotland.

My father's mother's parents were Cornish. His father's father was born in New Zealand (I've only recently discovered this, the prior "knowledge" being that he was from Shetland... the name is certainly idicative of Shetland origin). His wife was also born in New Zealand to one Scottish and one English parent.

So, I'm a New Zealander, that's where I was born, that's what it says on my passport and birth certificate. End of story there.

But, we have always known that our family is (mostly) Scottish in origin. In some cases the connections are some generations back, in others it's as recent as living memory. My grandfather said we belong to the Gunn clan, and if it was good enough for him, then it's good enough for me to honour him, by honouring my heritage.

As far as how my immigrant ancestors fared in their new home, well, unexpectedly they did well for themselves. I've only really investigated one part of the Scottish connection so far (considering that the surname has passed on from my paternal grandfather's mother to him, my dad and me as a second family name).

The Downie's came from Dumfriesshire and 2 brothers left to go to New Zealand. (one was my great great grandfather). His nephews went to Southern Rhodesia and had some success (one unfortunately died in a mine that he managed) the other took over his estate and eventually went on to manage the national airline, was a member of parliament and ultimately became High Commissioner to Southern Rhodesia in London.



My great great grandfather Charles Downie settled in Murchison, New Zealand and worked with the brother of my great great grandmother (his brother in law) who had secured contracts to build the roads there in the area.


(the town as it was a year after he arrived)

He later took over the hotel and built a new, larger hotel on the opposite corner of the street.


(the new hotel)

He also owned a farm, a saw-mill, and a bullock team!





This picture is hanging in what is now the museum in the town (It was originally known as Downie's Hall, and was functioning as a sort of local court house).


(My great great granparents, Charles and Sarah Downie)

In the same museum I was shown a quote in a book describing how my great great grandmother (pictured above) had to travel by canoe to the nearest city some kms away via the river to the nearest hospital each time she was about to give birth- and she had 12 children!

Some of the children: (my great grandmother is on the left)



I have the book which contains most of the photos above at home.

The eldest brother of my great granndmother become the chairman of the local regional council. He was also master of the local Freemason lodge.

My grandfather Eustace Clifford Downie Jamieson (the grandson of Charles Downie above) started his own business in 1947 after serving in WWII and built up a large family company. His sons (my father included) took over eventually and it grew to become the largest family owned business of it's type in the country. A branch of the business is still operated by my father, sister and 2 brothers today. I guess I'm the odd one out... (some might call me the black sheep)

I am proud of my family, and proud of it's Scottish origins. Of course I am more proud of what they did once they left Scotland, and what they did for my country. However, relatively speaking, I do far more to wave the flag as a Kiwi than I do as any kind of try-hard "kiwi-scot". Playing the pipes, and wearing the kilt on occasion is the least I can do to honour mine and my forebears' heritage.

Cheers!

Michael

[Sir William]

Many Scots are completely mystified by all this. Using myself as an example here, I just don't understand this "cousin" thing, ....Just because someone from Texas, North Island New Zealand, or, Western Australia has the same surname as me, well good for them, but they are not my "cousins"-----I know who my cousins are thank you....If you are an American then be an American, ....

I have encountered this attitude my entire life and the Scots, in this regard, are no different than the peoples of other nations. I routinely met people who had never left their home state, and in many cases had ventured no further than the next county. Thus, I can appreciate the fact that it is very difficult for those whose families have lived in one location for generations to understand the hunger of the descendants of immigrants for an ancestral home.

My experience is totally different from theirs and yours. By the time I was 18 I had lived in 19 different places, to include two European countries. The only time I saw my immediate relatives was when we moved from one location to another and visited them on the way (and then we had to go to 5 or more different states).

As I trace my genealogy, I find that my ancestors were nearly as mobile as I, with many living in the same locale for a less than a generation or two. But I have no native state; there is no place that I consider myself "from." There are only places where I have lived or and where my ancestors lived.

I was greatly surprised to learn I had "family" from Virginia, though 200 years separated us from the time they moved out in 1790 and I moved back in 1985. Ironically, they were Scots who came to Virginia by way of Pennsylvania, but in reality I am no more a Virginian or a Pennsylvanian than I am a Scot.

[ANP3]

I think the biggest problem to over come is "nationality," and "ethincity," or "heritage." Over 50% of my ancestors were Scottish, or decendents of Scots. Therefore my HERITAGE is Scottish, but my NATIONALITY is American. When Immigrants, Scottish or otherwise came to America they were often grouped by their ethnic or national origin. New York, Boston, San Fransisco, Chicago all had Irish, German, Jewish neighborhoods, that were not always lived in by immigrants alone, many times it was their children and grandchildren who lived in the "________ neighborhood," and their children would be discriminated against simply for being Irish, for example. A simple google serch will reveal that Americans looking for work would be turned away, for being the decendents of Irish immigrants, "Irish need not apply," should be your search terms. Any way when Americans ID themselves with another nationality they are honoring where they came from, honoring their family, and it is a cultural norm in the "nation of immigrants," because we have always identified with, or forced to identify with, the nations of our origens. Some simple "googleing," will provide support for this, look Chinese in American west, Boston Irish, Ulster-Scots in America, Deerbourne mi, Japanese internment camps. National origin has always been part of the American identity.

[Phil]

Correct me here if I am wrong but my impression of the Scots diaspora is that they energetically worked to disappear into the population of their new country as quickly as possible. Existing populations have a habit of discriminating against 'newcomers' and they would have seen this and recognised the vital importance of losing their 'foreign-ness' (is that a word?) as quickly as possible. The fact that they spoke English and had a similar appearance to the majority would have helped and parents would take care that their children did not pick up any of the tainted expressions from their homeland which would immediately set them apart. I have met second generation immigrants who have no knowledge whatever of many words that their parents must have used without thinking and which would have given away their roots. Even the use of a simple 'outwith' by Jock betrays his Scottish background.
In this way they quickly became successful citizens, unencumbered by the prejudices suffered by other immigrant groups such as the Irish, Italians, Chinese to name but a few. I have no doubt too that it is not so long, and may even be the case today, that many with Scottish surnames believed themselves to be Irish and, knowing no better, turned out on St Paddy's day with the best of them.
So what has caused this re-awakening of a long-lost heritage I wonder? And what changes in society have allowed what was once regarded as a stigma to become a symbol of pride and honour, to be flaunted at every opprtunity.

[thescot]

What an interesting discussion, the kind of thing that keeps me on Xmarks.

As usual, Jock is honest and to the point. I appreciate his view and tend to have the same one with respect to my own place of abode. I find that cariacatures and minstrel immitations of southern U.S. folks abound. (Want to get the idea that a character is crooked or stupid? Give him an exagerated Southern accent.) Heck, we even do that ourselves, but it's best not to do it if you're not from around here.

But the fact is, as Jock pointed out, unless you travel to and esperience a locale, you can't evn begin to understand that locale and those people. And even then, you only begin; you never really "get it." As an ardent student of history, I found that I knew much more of Scottish history that the native Scots with whom I worked while in Ayrshire. But then, I can say the same of Americans with whom I work.

Being at least the 7th generation from the "old country," and being as "muttly" as Forrestermodern ever thought about, I am American born and bred, first, last, and probably always. But it doesn't prevent my appreciation or embrace of other cultures and places.

I love Scotland, plan to take a nice long trip there in 2013 for my 60th birthday if possible and buy that scotch for Jock I still owe. I love the romance of the myths, nearly all the people I ever knew very well, and I like kilts. Been facinated with them since the first time I saw Fred MacMurray wearing one on My Three Sons as a kid and had to ask my dad about it.

And I am firmly of the opinion that Scotland has influenced the history and culture of many places in the world out of all proportion to its size and population count. There's a whole bunch of reasons for that (which I won't go into here), and all of them are open to argument. But the fact is that many of us choose to indentify with, discuss, emulate, and/or visit Scotland, often not even knowing the great difference between lowland and highland Scotlan and Scots. Heck, James VI-I didn't even like the highlanders as I understand it. Didn't trust those folks.

It's kind of like being a Southerner in the U.S., and that's probably one of the reasons I've always like the Scots. The greatest history professor I ever knew once, only slightly jokingly, attributed much of the Southern orneriness and bellicose nature to the Gaelic blood so prevalent in the region. He, too, had Scots and Scoth-Irish blood.

As to flattery and such--naw, me neither. I wear kilts for may reasons, but mostly because I like to do so. I don't really need any justification.

[cessna152towser]

Peter Crowe wrote:-

I often wondered about operating and running tours of Scotland focused on genuine history and culture for those interested, but seriously fear that to do it properly the costs would be too great and the market too small for such tours to be economically viable.

__________________
I have often had the same thoughts myself!

[piperdbh]

I have often had the same thoughts myself!

I'd like to go on that tour with you and Peter, Alex. In return, I'll be glad to show you around North Carolina.

[piperdbh]

So I would like to ask my cousins (eight times removed) have we done as we should have or am I just full of it?

Some of us have; some of us haven't. In my own family, most have prospered because we were taught to work for what we want, and because there has never been a "family fortune" to draw on. However, a few are less-than-prosperous, mainly due to waste of resources and lack of ambition. My guess is that this is the situation the world over, regardless of ethnicity, race, geographical origin or what-have-you.
To be sure, many people of Scots ancestry (I don't like using "diaspora") have done quite well for themselves, and have become famous for their accomplishments. However, probably an equal (or greater) number have "got by" however they could, and others have had to be "maintained" by their families and/or governments.

So, have we done as we should? Some of us have sometimes. Are you just full of it? Maybe. If you are, welcome to the club.

[Father Bill]

I'd like the tour too! Bet there are enough folks on XMarks to make a couple of rounds economically!

I read somewhere years and years ago that families are always "on the way up" or "on the way down" and they never stay the same. That sort of fits with the "clogs to clogs in three," although I don't think it's always just three. We're in the third generation of doing the better than the last, but it could have happened the other way too. I'll wait to see how the grandchildren do if they come in time for me to hang around and see.

One of the issues in a discussion like this is that a lot of people's ideas of "excellence" "correct" "right" or "good" are highly predicated on their idealized memories of what maybe once was. Kind of clouds the judgement, now doesn't it!

[RockyR]

One of the issues in a discussion like this is that a lot of people's ideas of "excellence" "correct" "right" or "good" are highly predicated on their idealized memories of what maybe once was. Kind of clouds the judgement, now doesn't it!

Kind of the "rose tinted glasses" and the "Grass is always greener" thing together.